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#1 TeAreOhWhy

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:11 PM

Can someone just help me understand why all paintball guns shoot the same regardless of price and how people say the shot accuracy of the marker is the same with all markers but when a different bolt is installed the shot persistence and accuracy is clearly better? I just feel like a LV1 is going to shoot more accurate than a Sonix, regardless of paint. And if upgrades are meaningless, than why do bolts affect performance? 



#2 andrewthewookie

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:17 PM

Bolts can affect certain dynamics within the gun for a smother shot, a more efficient gun, etc. However, they will never affect the accuracy of the gun.

 

Paintballs are just really bad projectiles. They're light liquid filled non-uniform spheres with a pronounced seam that is never oriented in the same direction between paintballs when they're shot. The paintball itself is always going to be less precise than we want, and will always be worse than any changes we can make with the system that shoots them. With clean gear, and a quality honed barrel, it doesn't matter what the mechanism is that shoots it, a tube is a tube is a tube and when pointed in the same direction, the same paint at the same velocity is going to have exactly the same trajectory and shot pattern no matter which gun shoots it.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 12 January 2014 - 10:17 PM.

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#3 Old Dude PB

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:12 PM

The scientific answer is that markers are just blowguns, and paintballs are lousy projectiles. Here's a question for you: If any manufacturer or marketer of any marker or upgrade could prove in an unbiased, repeatable test that their product consistently produced a meaningful improvement in accuracy versus their competitors or versus an un-upgraded gun, don't you think they'd be falling all over themselves to share that fact with us? If an LV1 actually shot straighter than a less expensive gun, wouldn't PE have ads and Facebook posts and YouTube videos demonstrating that fact? Read the product descriptions of the most expensive markers on ANS Gear. Half of them don't even mention accuracy, and the rest use weasel words like "consistent accuracy" or "extreme accuracy." None of them claim to be more accurate than their competitors. If they were, don't you think they'd mention it?



#4 Scum

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:19 PM

A more expensive gun *might* increase accuracy. Keyword: Might

People above me have already explained why a more expensive gun won't increase accuracy, so I won't go through that again.

It all comes down to how the gun feels in your hand, and *maybe* how smooth it is. If you shoot an LV1 and it feels amazing in your hands chances are you will make better shots with it. Smoothness also is a small factor in accuracy but it isn't that huge. On the flip side, an Azodin Kaos may feel amazing in your hands while an LV1 or a Luxe feels awful. You'll always shoot better with a marker that feels good.

Bolts don't increase accuracy, bolts increase air efficiency and reduce dwell time for a faster shot. Some of them are also gentler on paint.

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#5 andrewthewookie

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:28 PM

It all comes down to how the gun feels in your hand, and *maybe* how smooth it is. If you shoot an LV1 and it feels amazing in your hands chances are you will make better shots with it. Smoothness also is a small factor in accuracy but it isn't that huge. On the flip side, an Azodin Kaos may feel amazing in your hands while an LV1 or a Luxe feels awful. You'll always shoot better with a marker that feels good.

 

Pretty much this.

 

This is straight out of Cockerpunk's signature:

 

 

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.


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#6 Scum

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:32 PM

It all comes down to how the gun feels in your hand, and *maybe* how smooth it is. If you shoot an LV1 and it feels amazing in your hands chances are you will make better shots with it. Smoothness also is a small factor in accuracy but it isn't that huge. On the flip side, an Azodin Kaos may feel amazing in your hands while an LV1 or a Luxe feels awful. You'll always shoot better with a marker that feels good.

 
Pretty much this.
 
This is straight out of Cockerpunk's signature:
 

 
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.


Basically takes what I said and makes it sound profound and poetic.

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#7 Orange Chicken

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:27 AM

To the OP:
Is the upgraded bolt really clearly better? Just because you believe you saw an increase in accuracy with your eyes doesn't mean that it actually did anything regarding that matter. The placebo effect is one of the big things in human error.

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#8 TeAreOhWhy

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:14 AM

 

This video by no means is a good test example but when the bolt is upgraded it seems as if the shot is some what better, but I could just be seeing things

Also, I remember people saying things like the shot quality of said guns are awful, then that is untrue as well? 


Edited by TeAreOhWhy, 13 January 2014 - 11:19 AM.


#9 tallsmallboy44

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:35 AM

What you see is not always true. Watch Brain Games for a few minuteman you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Your brain lies to you, and people only tend to see what they want to see rather than what is actually happening.

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#10 andrewthewookie

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:45 PM

Remember, if you have to qualify what your senses tell you with "seems like" or something to that effect, it can almost be guaranteed that what you think you see isn't actually happening the way you think.

 

But like L said, there's a reason that when testing is done, the human variable is removed and data is taken on everything. The raw data that our senses are sending to our brains go through so much post processing and filtering, it's ridiculous. We get a distorted view of reality, and that doesn't even touch on our rather terrible memories for events. Normal human memory is never 100% complete, often only storing the key aspects or events of something, and our brains will literally manufacture details out of nothing to fill in the gaps based on what we think did happen/should have happened. This also leads me to something called confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is where your brain puts emphasis on the data that supports a preconceived notion; IE: "bolts make a gun more accurate," so when viewing a comparison video, you're actively trying to find a pattern in the shots that looks more accurate than the stock bolt. It doesn't matter what is actually happening, because you are subconsciously looking for a pattern that validates your assumptions rather than viewing the data objectively and making conclusions after.

 

Bryce did a test a while back, where he posted some white noise and asked us if we could hear the hidden message/sounds. It turns out there was nothing, it was just static. However, because we thought there was something in the noise, some people were actually able to convince themselves that there was in fact a hidden sound when there was none, simply because they believed there to be one before actually hearing anything.

 

TL;DR - Don't necessarily believe something simply because it seemed like it happened.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 13 January 2014 - 03:47 PM.

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#11 cockerpunk

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:57 PM

 

This video by no means is a good test example but when the bolt is upgraded it seems as if the shot is some what better, but I could just be seeing things

Also, I remember people saying things like the shot quality of said guns are awful, then that is untrue as well? 

 

what does "better" mean?


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#12 TeAreOhWhy

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:42 PM

Better as in less spread amongst the shots, but after watching the video a few times, the difference really wasn't there.

#13 Orange Chicken

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:36 AM

Well we say better shot quality as smoothness of the feeling of the marker when you shoot it, or how quiet it is. A marker with a good shot quality would be for example the GoG eNMEy, which is smooth and quiet shooting. In comparison, one with a decently poor shot quality would be an etek, which is louder and kickier.


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