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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:26 AM

Data:

https://docs.google....aWc&usp=sharing

 

 

Video:


Edited by brycelarson, 16 January 2014 - 10:31 AM.


#2 UV Halo

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:12 AM

Very cool!  Thanks for showing the recharge!  What do you think was the bigger impact to the 2yr old reg, a lack of servicing or, the shims?

 

Where's a good source for those gauges (or comparable)?  How much should I expect to pay?



#3 brycelarson

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:52 AM

http://www.mcmaster....-gauges/=q9zvd0

 

I'm going to hold off on commentary on the test for a while.  Gordon and I have talked at some length and have our opinions - but would rather hear what other people think before we lay out our ideas.



#4 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 02:13 PM

one thing i'd like the point out before it gets asked is for the ninja super high pressure, the output pressure was higher then our typical output pressure gauge would go, so thats why we use the gauge we did. our output gauge is 0-1000psi, while our tank pressure guage is 0-3000. this means we had to use the ninja mini-guage for judging tank pressures for the linearity test ... which was far less then ideal. take those set point pressures with a grain of salt. there is still a trend there, but i wanted to make sure our instrumentation limitation was documented.

 

carry on


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#5 germanpb

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

Well, I guess the G3 isn't more consistent than any other reg on the market. Sad, was hoping that all the talk was more than that. Other than the weird behavior of the reg in the second take of the G3 it was comparable to the Ninja Pro (just started at a lower pressure, from what I saw in the video of both dropping about 100 psi while rapid firing). If I am wrong, to my defense I was watch the videos on my phone. ;-)

#6 germanpb

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:11 PM

But the G3 looked good on the creep chart, just not so good on the In/out chart.

#7 unfated33

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:45 PM

As always, questions:

 

1.  Geez, how long did it take to depressurize each tank, remove the regulator, add the new regulator, and repressurize (or did you use multiple air tanks)?  This test would seem to be very time intensive for comparatively little data.

2.  It does not appear that you recorded any data for the pressure changes occurring during the shots and rapid fire.  Was this data you intended to collect and weren't able to, data you did collect and decided not to present, or other?  Was that just to measure the input/output result?  Other than to demonstrate the decrease in pressure shot after shot, what was the goal for this part of the video and test?

3.  Looking at the data, none of these results necessarily concern me from a "will these regs let my marker shoot a paintball 300fps-ish", but is there anything further we should draw conclusions about how the pressure fluctuations will affect the marker HPR and its related consistency?  Should we expect a reg that had smaller creep lead to a better overall consistency?  I'm inclined to say yes, but I'm just not sure how much the input fluctuation of pressure to the HPR will affect firing velocity variation.


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#8 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:06 PM

1. with the right euiqpment its not too bad, couple 3 or 4 hours for this one
2. i do not personally trust the method of testing shoot down via liquid filled guage drop. traducer is the proper way to test this. the video is more to demostrate the odd pressure behaviors we have seen in regulators while testing. the G3 had that bizzare pressure drop, and the GA's we shot in the last round of testing would bounce around on output pressure. the video is primarly to document these phenominas.
3. yes, such pressure changes will invitably effect your HPR, and actually your LPR pressures. this depends on a lot of factors, most importantly, the linearity of your HPR.


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#9 UV Halo

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 06:20 PM

Gordon:  On the old tank, did you employ any kind of tank input filtration in the last two years?  I'd like to think that the tiny particles of dirt over the past two years gummed up the piston to the point of slowing the recharge (assuming that the two shims give you a 950ish PSI output).  A worst case scenario- the reg has worn to the point of increased friction.

 

It'd be awesome if you could tear down the old reg alongside the new ninja pro reg to show the difference in lube.  This may highlight the importance of regularly cleaning a reg (god knows I've never done it).

 

Does anyone know of any such data for an AGD Flatline reg?



#10 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 06:52 PM

Gordon:  On the old tank, did you employ any kind of tank input filtration in the last two years?  I'd like to think that the tiny particles of dirt over the past two years gummed up the piston to the point of slowing the recharge (assuming that the two shims give you a 950ish PSI output).  A worst case scenario- the reg has worn to the point of increased friction.

 

It'd be awesome if you could tear down the old reg alongside the new ninja pro reg to show the difference in lube.  This may highlight the importance of regularly cleaning a reg (god knows I've never done it).

 

Does anyone know of any such data for an AGD Flatline reg?

 

only the filltration systems on normal paintball compressors. nothing out of the ordinary in its usage.


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#11 germanpb

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 12:03 AM

Would myth reg behave the same at different output pressures? Like installing their low pressure kit, would there still be the over 100 psi drop during rapidfire? Just curious, since I did buy the g3 (damn my impulse buying and trusting what company reps tell you) and was going to install a low pressure kit, but if I drop the output pressure to like 450psi and my marker's operating pressure is around 300psi then that would be critical when rapid firing.
If the drop in pressure is only half that, then it would be acceptable (I hope).

#12 unfated33

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:18 AM

1. with the right euiqpment its not too bad, couple 3 or 4 hours for this one
2. i do not personally trust the method of testing shoot down via liquid filled guage drop. traducer is the proper way to test this. the video is more to demostrate the odd pressure behaviors we have seen in regulators while testing. the G3 had that bizzare pressure drop, and the GA's we shot in the last round of testing would bounce around on output pressure. the video is primarly to document these phenominas.
3. yes, such pressure changes will invitably effect your HPR, and actually your LPR pressures. this depends on a lot of factors, most importantly, the linearity of your HPR.

Thanks!  :tup:

 

Agreed on the use of pressure transducers - that was my first thought when watching the video (it's happening so fast, you'd want a computer to record the fluctuations and high/low points).  Even assuming you could get them relatively cheaply,  that would still likely add $50 or more for transducers alone to the cost of the test (not even sure how the cheap transducers communicate and what you'd have available to receive the result).

 

Now I want to go try the same test with a bunch of common brand HPRs (sidewinder, CP, hyper 3, rock steady, torpedo).  I'm sure that conversation will go well with the wife.  Especially since the complexity gets higher - have to see if there's a way to mount a pressure gauge/transducer between the HPR and marker


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#13 brycelarson

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 09:20 AM

I want to add a note - the video of the gauges during firing is simply a comparative test - There isn't hard data to be gleaned.

 

We shoot those videos simply to see if the regulators do anything odd during recharge.  The prime example was the initial Myth reg testing in which we diagnosed a sticking piston due to the output flucutuations on each shot.

 

These tests should not be seen as flow rate tests or shootdown tests.  The data we posted is only about the steady state performance of the regs.



#14 UV Halo

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 01:52 PM

I don't really care but, I wonder why we were seeing output pressures drop on the Myth reg immediately after a recharge.  That struck me as really strange.

 

A shame you couldn't get one of the new Immortal Air Aura regs.  I've not seen a detail photo to be sure but, the piston design looked pretty different to me, at first glance, it reminded me of an AKA 2-liter piston.

 

Would it be wrong for me to look at video data for inference on how much my air source would deviate on a slow (1-2) BPS rate?  For example, if it takes 2 seconds to return to it's steady (not accounting for slow creep) pressure

 

My personal goal for the use of this information is to determine just how consistent my system is in delivering air to my first strike rounds.  I found some old Have Blue test data that had a flatline reg (the reg inside of the FN303) but, it was only compared to a Center Flag reg and, presented as a jpeg.

 

It's looking like I will need to have an adapter built that will screw into the end of the powertube and allow me to bleed air and measure the recharge rate and pressure.



#15 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:59 PM

I don't really care but, I wonder why we were seeing output pressures drop on the Myth reg immediately after a recharge.  That struck me as really strange.

 

A shame you couldn't get one of the new Immortal Air Aura regs.  I've not seen a detail photo to be sure but, the piston design looked pretty different to me, at first glance, it reminded me of an AKA 2-liter piston.

 

Would it be wrong for me to look at video data for inference on how much my air source would deviate on a slow (1-2) BPS rate?  For example, if it takes 2 seconds to return to it's steady (not accounting for slow creep) pressure

 

My personal goal for the use of this information is to determine just how consistent my system is in delivering air to my first strike rounds.  I found some old Have Blue test data that had a flatline reg (the reg inside of the FN303) but, it was only compared to a Center Flag reg and, presented as a jpeg.

 

It's looking like I will need to have an adapter built that will screw into the end of the powertube and allow me to bleed air and measure the recharge rate and pressure.

agreed the G3 myth has a weird one, we saw that every time we fired the gun.

the problem is, with a liquid filled guage, its designed to damp out and stablize its readings. so when it takes a long time for it move, that doesn't nessisarily mean that the pressure is taking that long, it means the gauge is lagging. this is why i wouldn't trust it for shoot down.


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#16 lovebunny

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:03 PM

intressting.


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#17 germanpb

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 01:06 AM

Then the G3 was probably so fast that the gauge wasn't able to work properly. I haven't had any problems with it on my high performance marker, Tippmann Crossover. ;)

#18 cabs72

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:52 AM

just wondering if Bryce and Gordon are willing to share their thoughts yet?



#19 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:24 PM

teh g3 seemed a lot better then the older GAs, but the ninja is still king.

and on the ninja front, the regular design, the standard output is the best. the others seem to be stretching the design limits a bit, and exhibit worse (but still pretty ok) performance.

lesson learned: just buy the regular output one. and clean it from time to time ;)


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#20 azreal

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

As far as a setup to change regs quickly Chris from paintball Indiana has a nifty setup where he has a threaded block you screw the tank regulator into then a scuba tank with on off is the input. Makes testing regs about a thousand times easier, I know I went through 20 regs in an hour and half or so last year.

As far as screwins I tend to prefer ninjas, for really interesting results try to find a dynaflow, they behave in a manner different from almost any other reg. Good data guys!

az

#21 cockerpunk

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:58 PM

yeah, we have that digital DAQ, and trasducers to do a recharge test. just hanve not set it up yet.


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#22 r45vt

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:33 AM

Great video.  Very interesting to watch.  Thanks for taking the time to do that.  I know which reg to buy on the next tank.  



#23 Whiskey Hammer

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:00 PM

I dont know if you'd find it more convenient, but I have a pretty decent electriconic industrial gauge lying around. It's slotted for a test on the affects of throttled recharge rate on output consistency but my other projects have pushed this one to the back burner. 

 

It's a +/-0.25% Full Scale at 0-500 psi sooooo... +/- 1.25 psi w/ wiring for an output. I havent messed with it much, but your welcome to it while I work through my backlog. 


Edited by Whiskey Hammer, 20 March 2014 - 06:06 PM.


#24 cockerpunk

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:21 AM

i have some pressure transducers somewhere here that we could use for recharge. that would be a better tool.


The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#25 Cyco-Dude

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:47 AM

These tests should not be seen as flow rate tests or shootdown tests.  The data we posted is only about the steady state performance of the regs.

 

 

lesson learned: just buy the regular output one. and clean it from time to time ;)

 

that's pretty much what i took away from it. fits my experience as well; if you start seeing larger than normal pressure (velocity) fluctuations, it's time to service the regulator.

 

all of these regs would work just fine with a mech semi-auto, just maintain them and you'll be good. i perfer ninja for the steel bonnet though. much easier to screw into and out of a non on-off asa.






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