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Spring Mod on reflex rail


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#1 zecrom_89

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:32 PM

Is it possible to spring the bolt on the Reflex rail drive assembly?



#2 PREDATOR 47

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:55 PM

It should be do-able, but what are you hoping to gain from it?



#3 zecrom_89

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:03 PM

It should be do-able, but what are you hoping to gain from it?

Doesn't it get rid of FSDO and you can lower the dwell alittle bit?



#4 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

I would not do it, while it might help with FSDO, the hpr would require more pressure with bringing the bolt back, while technically less force would be required to move the bolt forward you would have to increase the overall pressure to compensate for the spring, which would overall make the marker have more kick. Also, it will be harder for the bolt to be brought back to allow for pressure buildup, so to compensate for this you would have to increase the hpr pressure. So by doing this mod you'll most definitely make the marker worst from what I can tell, as the Rail is a balance spool, and adding the spring would basically make it unbalanced, and the Rail is not designed to function that way, the only benefit I can possible see is better efficiency. Simply put, don't do it.



#5 zecrom_89

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:58 PM

I would not do it, while it might help with FSDO, the hpr would require more pressure with bringing the bolt back, while technically less force would be required to move the bolt forward you would have to increase the overall pressure to compensate for the spring, which would overall make the marker have more kick. Also, it will be harder for the bolt to be brought back to allow for pressure buildup, so to compensate for this you would have to increase the hpr pressure. So by doing this mod you'll most definitely make the marker worst from what I can tell, as the Rail is a balance spool, and adding the spring would basically make it unbalanced, and the Rail is not designed to function that way, the only benefit I can possible see is better efficiency. Simply put, don't do it.

Alright thanks for the insight.



#6 Old Dude PB

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:07 PM

Springing the Rail bolt won't unbalance it, actually. The Rail is already an unbalanced design. A spring will absolutely make the operating pressure higher, which will make the marker less smooth, increase the bolt speed, and accelerate wear on the bolt o-rings. Having said all that, I'm not sure it would hurt anything, so if you have some springs, why not try it and let us know what you learn?

#7 zecrom_89

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:55 PM

Springing the Rail bolt won't unbalance it, actually. The Rail is already an unbalanced design. A spring will absolutely make the operating pressure higher, which will make the marker less smooth, increase the bolt speed, and accelerate wear on the bolt o-rings. Having said all that, I'm not sure it would hurt anything, so if you have some springs, why not try it and let us know what you learn?

Ok I guess I will tinker around with a couple different springs. thanks!



#8 andrewthewookie

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:04 PM

If it's just enough spring to get rid of FSDO or bolt stick, then there should not be any change in pressure. If the spring force is high enough to cause the bolt to move faster, then the valve will act more efficiently and you should actually be able to lower the pressure, not have to turn it up. Also, you won't have to worry about any pressure to "overcome" the spring, since as long as it's not enough force to change the balance between the return force and the constant forward force, it will always work.

 

They balance the forces fairly lopsided in the blow-forwards between the constant forward force and the return forces, it would take quite a bit of force to cause any problems with the cycle, probably more than any spring that could fit in the gun could produce.

 

Basically, whenever you add forward force to a spool bolt, the net effect is typically a reduction of overall operating pressure.

 

 

 

Here's a guy who spring modded his PMR, he gained about 15 FPS just from dropping it in.

 

http://www.pbnation....d.php?t=3993087


Edited by andrewthewookie, 15 February 2014 - 10:14 PM.

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#9 zecrom_89

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:43 PM

I found this spring from a previously cut, empire er3 hammer spring fits inside and pushes the bolt up just half way, it is too short. Do you think empire would ship me one for free? Cause i dont really know where to get one.



#10 Old Dude PB

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:59 PM

Also, you won't have to worry about any pressure to "overcome" the spring, since as long as it's not enough force to change the balance between the return force and the constant forward force, it will always work.


Hmm. That's what I was thinking would be an issue. (Runs downstairs to look for an appropriate spring...)

#11 andrewthewookie

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:19 PM

Basically, the ratio between the pneumatic rear force and forward force will always be identical since the areas the pressure works on don't change. As long as the spring force plus the forward force is less overall than the rear force, it will be fine.

 

After some quick calculations using my own PMR bolt, at 150 psi there should be about 22lbs of rear force, and about 11lbs of forward force. This works out to around an equal amount of net force for each direction, ~ll lbs each way. You'd have to use a spring that could add least add 10 lbs to the bolt before you'd start to run into recocking issues, though you would see slower cycle times overall getting close to that threshold. I spring modded one of my old Ions with a spring similar to what some of the Lucky Ion bolts used, I think they were around 2-3lb springs, and they were plenty stiff.

 

I'd say something in the 2-3lb range would probably be good; strong enough to get the anti FSDO/bolt stick and possibly efficiency increases without reducing the BPS below an acceptable level.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 16 February 2014 - 01:19 AM.

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#12 zecrom_89

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:23 PM

Basically, the ratio between the pneumatic rear force and forward force will always be identical since the areas the pressure works on don't change. As long as the spring force plus the forward force is less overall than the rear force, it will be fine.

 

After some quick calculations using my own PMR bolt, at 150 psi there should be about 22lbs of rear force, and about 11lbs of forward force. You'd have to use a spring that could add least add 10 lbs to the bolt before you'd start to run into recocking issues, though you would see slower cycle times overall getting close to that threshold. I spring modded one of my old Ions with a spring similar to what some of the Lucky Ion bolts used, I think they were around 2-3lb springs, and they were plenty stiff.

 

I'd say something in the 2-3lb range would probably be good; strong enough to get the anti FSDO/bolt stick and possibly efficiency increases without reducing the BPS below an acceptable level.

Even if the bolt is only pushed 1/2 the way foward would it still prevent FSDO?



#13 andrewthewookie

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:34 PM

Yes. For a given material, the coefficient of static friction (stiction) will typically be higher than for kinetic friction. The ELI5 version: it takes more force to start moving something than to keep it moving. This means that as soon as the bolt "breaks away" from being stuck, it'll continue moving through the cycle much easier, so even just having a spring for the first half should work.

 

With that said, having the bolt leave the spring, then return and physically strike it on the return stroke may introduce unintended wear patterns from the spring against the surfaces it touches, which could become an issue later on.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 16 February 2014 - 01:36 AM.

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#14 Jawz

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:12 AM

If it's just enough spring to get rid of FSDO or bolt stick, then there should not be any change in pressure. If the spring force is high enough to cause the bolt to move faster, then the valve will act more efficiently and you should actually be able to lower the pressure, not have to turn it up. Also, you won't have to worry about any pressure to "overcome" the spring, since as long as it's not enough force to change the balance between the return force and the constant forward force, it will always work.

 

They balance the forces fairly lopsided in the blow-forwards between the constant forward force and the return forces, it would take quite a bit of force to cause any problems with the cycle, probably more than any spring that could fit in the gun could produce.

 

Basically, whenever you add forward force to a spool bolt, the net effect is typically a reduction of overall operating pressure.

 

 

 

Here's a guy who spring modded his PMR, he gained about 15 FPS just from dropping it in.

 

http://www.pbnation....d.php?t=3993087

totally was gonna say that


109.gif

 

 

 


#15 Punisher068

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:32 AM

I tried this mod on my 2011 PMRs with a pen spring after they wouldn't crono to field speed without upping the dwell almost to the max setting and adding a QEV,gave me a 10-15 fps boost.

I suspect it's more about shimming the bolt forward slightly than the forward push from the spring in my case,similar to using rubber spacers on a NT.It will mark the rear tip of your bolt also,not too critical for sealing the system so it probably won't affect it much


Edited by Punisher068, 16 February 2014 - 10:34 AM.


#16 zecrom_89

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:12 AM

Yes. For a given material, the coefficient of static friction (stiction) will typically be higher than for kinetic friction. The ELI5 version: it takes more force to start moving something than to keep it moving. This means that as soon as the bolt "breaks away" from being stuck, it'll continue moving through the cycle much easier, so even just having a spring for the first half should work.

 

With that said, having the bolt leave the spring, then return and physically strike it on the return stroke may introduce unintended wear patterns from the spring against the surfaces it touches, which could become an issue later on.

So if you had to choose i would you do it?



#17 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:30 AM

I would.


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#18 zecrom_89

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:43 AM

I would.

I hot glued the ends of the springs to act as kind of a bumper to prevent wear do you think it is was a good idea?



#19 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:49 AM

It should be fine.


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#20 zecrom_89

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:54 PM

It should be fine.

Its actually not pushed half way after looking at it awhile kinda only 1/4 maybe 1/3 pushed foward.



#21 zecrom_89

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:51 PM

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