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Lurker Paragon


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#51 lovebunny

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:07 PM

yes! thats my next gun. when can i buy one?


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#52 Egomaniacal

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:36 PM

I could be wrong, but it appears there is more force exerted in the forward stroke than in the rearward stroke, thus canceling out some of the recoil caused by the force projected on the paintball. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because if this is true it should be smoother than anything out there, based on the air volume and operating pressure (90-100psi) it should quieter than almost anything out there, and with the plunger closing off the air regardless of dwell time it should be more efficient than anything out there. Can someone please point out some flaws, because I can't find any.

 

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#53 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:41 PM

Thanks, here are some more pictures taken from pbnation:

 

 


6682CEA5-90F9-41C4-A0BD-7858E59B92DC_zps

E63BC2A0-7677-4097-BE96-6A744CE886F5_zps

132A23EA-3F64-47CA-B3D5-AB596DF8D8BA_zps

8576A148-E77E-4885-B1D1-75DF595F2575_zps


#54 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:30 PM

I found some flaws, the clutch o-ring looks like it could be susceptible to wear more easily than normal o-rings due to the bolt squeezing and sliding off and onto it. Also since the potential energy in the spring is a fixed quantity, unless calculations were done exactly, the spring could provide more kick than is necessary if the spring tension is to high, and if the spring tension is to low it could be less efficient than is necessary. This is still one of the best designs I've seen, I just wanted to mention some potential flaws, but knowing Lurker the potential energy provided by the spring was probably calculated out to provide optimum performance. As far as ergonomics goes, this definitely looks promising and I can't seem to find any flaws in this aspect. The only marker I think that could give this marker a run for its money is the Thin Air Sports Zealot, while it's not as light, the bolt design is quite impressive, and the bolt speed is adjustable using the lpr. From what I can tell from the design, the higher you set the lpr the more force their will be in the forward stroke and simultaneously the less force their will be in the rearward stroke, allowing you to perfectly adjust it so their will be basically no kick, because you want more forward force to compensate for the force of the paintball leaving the barrel. The bolt also looks crazy efficient, as once the forward dwell has ended it appears the solenoid will cut off the airflow to the foregrip expansion chamber and redirect the airflow from the foregrip expansion chamber to push the bolt back. So which one will be better, I don't know, but I would say it would be close as far as bolt performance goes, I would still give the edge to the paragon in terms of ergonomics and lightness, but the ergonomics of the Zealot also look well thought-out.



#55 andrewthewookie

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:41 PM

I found some flaws, the clutch o-ring looks like it could be susceptible to wear more easily than normal o-rings due to the bolt squeezing and sliding off and onto it. Also since the potential energy in the spring is a fixed quantity, unless calculations were done exactly, the spring could provide more kick than is necessary if the spring tension is to high, and if the spring tension is to low it could be less efficient than is necessary. This is still one of the best designs I've seen, I just wanted to mention some potential flaws, but knowing Lurker the potential energy provided by the spring was probably calculated out to provide optimum performance. As far as ergonomics goes, this definitely looks promising and I can't seem to find any flaws in this aspect. The only marker I think that could give this marker a run for its money is the Thin Air Sports Zealot, while it's not as light, the bolt design is quite impressive, and the bolt speed is adjustable using the lpr. From what I can tell from the design, the higher you set the lpr the more force their will be in the forward stroke and simultaneously the less force their will be in the rearward stroke, allowing you to perfectly adjust it so their will be basically no kick, because you want more forward force to compensate for the force of the paintball leaving the barrel. The bolt also looks crazy efficient, as once the forward dwell has ended it appears the solenoid will cut off the airflow to the foregrip expansion chamber and redirect the airflow from the foregrip expansion chamber to push the bolt back. So which one will be better, I don't know, but I would say it would be close as far as bolt performance goes, I would still give the edge to the paragon in terms of ergonomics and lightness, but the ergonomics of the Zealot also look well thought-out.

 

The clutch o-ring is not a critical o-ring, it is simply there to provide enough friction for the bolt to bring the valve forward with it. It could have chunks missing and it wouldn't matter.

 

The spring is not necessary for the valve, it is the back pressure from the paintball that closes the valve. Something like 11lbs of rearward force come from that, and under 1 lb of rear force from the spring. It's there to hold the valve closed upon airing up, because if the valve is open when that happens, it could potentially fire.

 

The foregrip is just a foregrip, it has no volume. The solenoid routes air from the dump chamber to the front of the bolt to hold it back. Upon firing, the solenoid switches to block off the dump chamber source, and route the air in front of the bolt to behind the bolt to start the firing process. Once the valve has cleared its seal, the actual dump chamber pressure finishes the cycle. That's also why this is a dwell insensitive gun, because you only need the initial dwell to kickstart the cycle, rather than for the whole cycle.

 

Again, force ≠ kick. Please stop thinking like that.

 

 

Following responses on the Zealot moved to the Zealot thread.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 06 March 2014 - 08:34 PM.

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#56 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:41 PM

Well going back to the Lurker Paragon, I still can't find anything wrong with it, it'll probably be better than anything out there.



#57 Egomaniacal

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 11:52 PM

The clutch ring will come stock as Viton, but Buna works well also. The system is remarkably robust even if that ring doesn't seal well - as the bolt comes forward the ramp which activates the main valve adds additional compressive force, which helps compensate in the case of clutch ring damage.


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#58 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:14 AM

Taken from Lurker27 on PbNation:

 

 

Regarding price and efficiency, yes. Purely expectation management, I hope you understand. We know how well the valve flows from CFD simulations (better than almost anything, matched areas, no ports to flow through), we know how fast the valve closes (kinematics, test results), and we know it wastes no air in the cycling process (a full pod wasted on something as efficient as a G6R). We haven't had the full system up and running with the final solenoid, so we haven't burned through a case to get preliminary numbers. 

The bolt cycle is designed for a total cycle time around 30ms, though we haven't put it on high speed yet, and haven't tried to cram as much paint as possible through it either. It won't beat the guns from 2007/2008 in raw speed, because to do that it would have to be a terrible tournament paintball marker.

Our goal is simple: produce the marker that makes the most possible eliminations. To that end, we really need ease on paint (brittlest possible paint = most breaks downrange). We also need a reg that flows very well, because many tournament markers have 5-10 fps of shootdown, which is not a trivial amount of kinetic energy to lose to the ball. Finally, consistency shot to shot allows you to chrono closer to the limit without penalty (more energy downrange). So, regulator design is key, and "good enough"...isn't.

The regulator is a balanced poppet design most similar to the Maxflowor AKA 2 Liter. However, it has several functional improvements aimed at improving the resolution of pressure sensing (all regulators are control units at their core, and need to act on information from the gun's chamber). Most notably, stashing the piston in the grip frame limits the ability to have a large area for the pressure to be sensed. Our ASA based design allows us to use a 017, like the 2 Liter. We also like that this style of regulator can easily incorporate an overpressure purge, so in the event of the reg seat leaking or a gun left in the sun etc, excess pressure vents and the pressure returns to the set point.

We also played some tricks that will be abundantly clear in the final design to practiced eyes, but don't belong in this thread.

The Evolve Pi doesn't work because it constantly has a seal exposed to tank pressure (massive extrusion force) sliding over ports. The literature refers to the failures this design element causes as "nibbling". Many examples of this type of o-ring wear are abundant in paintball.

No seals anywhere in the Paragon are exposed to sharp edges or ports, so we anticipate the o-ring life to be quite reliable. This includes the regulator and solenoid as well.

This marker just keeps looking better and better.



#59 The Recballer

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:59 PM

Want want want.

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#60 tcheekdye

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 03:03 PM

I hope they have some better colors because that's one of the ugliest guns I've ever seen

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#61 Pvlacrosse14

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:33 PM

Why lurker? Such a great looking body but in my opinion, you screwed up the looks of this marker with the grip of the eye covers and with the Asa. Mill and make the Asa flush with the frame as well as stop the grip before the eye covers and you will have a winner

Edited by Pvlacrosse14, 20 March 2014 - 01:33 PM.

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#62 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:47 PM

Why lurker? Such a great looking body but in my opinion, you screwed up the looks of this marker with the grip of the eye covers and with the Asa. Mill and make the Asa flush with the frame as well as stop the grip before the eye covers and you will have a winner


The ASA is also the reg.

#63 SOUP

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:54 PM

Why lurker? Such a great looking body but in my opinion, you screwed up the looks of this marker with the grip of the eye covers and with the Asa. Mill and make the Asa flush with the frame as well as stop the grip before the eye covers and you will have a winner

 

There is a purpose for all of your gripes.

 

The rubber grip to cover the eyes is a simple and smart design imo. They're not having to have eye covers milled, polished, and anodized. The rubber grips are more than likely easier and far cheaper to fabricate too. So they're probably saving quite a bit of money doing this. It just makes sense to utilize this design. I rather liked the 1 screw removal on the pm5/ pm6 markers too, so this should be kinda similar, except it's part of the grip too and not just a plastic/ rubber mold like the PMs were.

 

As for the asa, I'm glad it's not flush. It's so uncomfortable having the tank regulator right at your wrists all the time. Having it extended like that keeps the fill nipple, gauge, and all that off your wrists when you're holding it. It's also a reg, as stated above, and the profile is nice and sleek for it being a reg/ asa. Just look at the mini and axe asa/ regs for comparison. These are much slimmer and better looking imo.


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#64 andrewthewookie

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

The ASA/regulator is not flush because the frame is an 86 frame. The end of the ASA sits where it would if the frame is a 45 frame, so you get the same spacing as other guns but with superior bio-mechanical geometry.


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#65 Living Legends Fan

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:58 PM

I'm loving the color scheme of it to be honest.


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#66 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:50 PM

Here's a picture of the evolution of the marker over the past 2 years taken from Lurker's facebook page:

1975247_756077977743169_295145474_n.jpg



#67 OMGitisZMD

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 08:10 PM

This marker looks like it's going to be great! Probably one of the best if not the best gun today!


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#68 nineteen5

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:10 PM

what is the price or has one even been released?



#69 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:53 PM

Both the price and the release date have not yet been set.



#70 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:57 PM

Here's some more info on the marker from Lurker27 on PbNation:

 

 

The decision to use AAA was predicated on availability (gas station test) versus space constraints in the frame. AAAs are also less expensive. Frankly, I think in a vacuum, AAAs are better. AAAs are also markedly less expensive if you'd like to use rechargeables.

Things to note, and Steve may want to correct me, but.

1. The gun has a true shut off switch circuit - your batteries will not drain in isolation like they do in many other pieces of pb equipment.

2. The solenoid drive electronics are designed to sip battery current, using a design which, to our knowledge has not been implemented elsewhere in paintball. 

On paper, if you shot a case every weekend from March to November, you wouldn't need to change the batteries. 


The fact that people are so worried about the battery choice honestly just confirms to us how poorly the issue has been designed around in the past. Without naming names, at least 3 of my markers drain the battery while the gun sits.

Taken from Steve@LurkerPB on PbNation:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurker27 viewpost.gif
On paper, if you shot a case every weekend from March to November, you wouldn't need to change the batteries.
No.

While Ryan is very good at mechanical stuff, in his words "electronics are like magic to me". The batteries should last quite a while but I need to quash this statement right now.

Taken from Lurker27 on PbNation:

 

 

We finally got the piece we needed for our custom solenoid valve, so we can run tests with our prototype with things dialed to production spec. The other good news is my machining logistics are already set and our favorite machinist has empty machines ready to receive us with open chucks.

tinyspool.jpg

Steve is chomping at the bit to get this thing tested to our satisfaction, we have quite a few parts already finalized based on their demonstrated performance. All our items have no stacked lead times, we are still feeling good about a summer release.

Ryan


#71 xincognitopbx

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:30 PM

Any updates? I like the idea of sub 100 psi poppets.  That will probably sound nice.  I will probably buy this if its not over $1100 and providing the finish on the gun doesn't look as poor as the pbn/ansgear photos.  I would also like to see some high quality dye/planet style super soft rubbery grips.  imo that's a winner (weiner).


But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#72 unfated33

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:43 PM

I often defer to Ydna for interpretation of spool vs. poppet, and based on his marker animations page this is not a poppet marker.  And if you think about the valve operation, there's nothing inside the bolt engine that hits against a face seal like you'd find in a poppet.  So this should be considered a spool valve.

 

http://www.zdspb.com...animations.html

 

(Note, Ydna does reference a firing poppet, but if you watch the animation that's just in regards to the actuation of the switch that opens and closes the bolt.  The engine itself is slow opening like a spool.)


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#73 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:02 PM

The Paragon is a spool.


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#74 unfated33

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:17 PM

Who's got my back?  Wookie's got my back.


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#75 xincognitopbx

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:35 PM

I should have corrected myself. Any marker shooting sub 100 psi is a weiner.


But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#76 ChloricName

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:33 PM

My only gripe, (because I don't understand the fancy words,) is the fore grip. It looks kinda ugly IMO. Also, it looks like a gsl on a diet. A little too thin for my preference. I wonder how efficient it is...

#77 xincognitopbx

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:34 PM

My only gripe, (because I don't understand the fancy words,) is the fore grip. It looks kinda ugly IMO. Also, it looks like a gsl on a diet. A little too thin for my preference. I wonder how efficient it is...

That's going to be a lot of people's gripes I can imagine.  I have no doubt the reliability, shot quality, and efficiency are going to nothing short of incredible.  The only reason it won't sell like a luxe is because it doesn't look like one.  

 

It's thin because it's only 1 lb 9 oz.

 

If I were them I would redesign the fore grip and back cap of the marker, make those look more aesthetic and they have the potential to ruin luxe's 6 year dominance streak.


But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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