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Automag Air Efficiency


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#1 Shaggy-FOO

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:33 PM

So I have a question. How is the air efficiency of automags compared to modern day spools? I vaguely remember it being really good. Considering it's an unbalanced blowforward spool and it's mechanical bolt return from that big spring I'm guessing that can increase efficiency? I don't know though hence I'm asking.

Edited by Shaggy-FOO, 22 July 2009 - 09:36 PM.

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#2 Z3R0

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:52 PM

Mags only get 900-1200 shots on a 68/45 roughly, depending on your bore size and paint size, and barrel length, and all those other factors like that. Basically any modern spool ties that or does better...

Although it's tough to say if any of them shoot as nicely...

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#3 cockerpunk

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:59 PM

or as reliably.

Edited by cockerpunk, 22 July 2009 - 09:59 PM.

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#4 Shaggy-FOO

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 10:13 PM

huh that's it? I thought it got more. Good to know
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#5 LieutenantDan

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 10:40 PM

From my understanding, the Automag is more efficient in operation, but requires higher pressures. Since it can't shoot as deep into a tank as a modern spool valve, it gets less shots per tank, even though it technically uses less air.
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#6 BOBBYTUCSON

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:11 AM

whats funny is one of the most efficient spoolies on the market is the droid , and coincidentaly the droid resembles the automag internally than any other spool out today
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#7 TheRock

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 03:57 AM

whats funny is one of the most efficient spoolies on the market is the droid , and coincidentaly the droid resembles the automag internally than any other spool out today


Look at the old freestyle -05 thats a direct ripoff from the automag(or AGD ripoffed ICD blowforwards to long ago?) only difference is a solinoid/board and an lpr to act as the spring.
The bolt looks like an automagbolt but the sealing oring is on the boltstem instead of in the powertube.
Mine is crazy inefficient 500paintballs out of 68/4500cold fill, i can hear how its overdwelling with each shot :rolleyes: but it got better with monkey poo and no way to set dwell or antiboltstick on it stock...

With my pneu tac 1 and longest spring im happy to get 900 out of a cold fill 68/4500 but with good paint 290-290-290-290 fps is no problem over chrono.
Without pneu almost 100more out of the tank.

#8 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 05:23 AM

Yeah I agree with therock, Automags are really not very efficient at all. I'd say closer to the 900 shots per 68/4500. I won't even play with my pneu mag if I don't get close to a full 4500 psi fill because I'm likely to run out of air before we finish a set of games.
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#9 thepaintballnerd

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 06:47 AM

The reason that the automag is not air efficent is that it was "concepted" when efficency was a true problem, people shot very,very, very little paint.

here is a quick time line of auto mags:

1990-\Automag 1991- \Minimag 1992- \Sydarm 1996- \RT 2000- \RT Pro 2000- \Emag 2002- \Xmag


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#10 Z3R0

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 12:20 PM

whats funny is one of the most efficient spoolies on the market is the droid , and coincidentaly the droid resembles the automag internally than any other spool out today


Not at all... a Droid and a Mag are hardly similar at all.

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#11 Spitlebug

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:02 PM

whats funny is one of the most efficient spoolies on the market is the droid , and coincidentaly the droid resembles the automag internally than any other spool out today


Look at the old freestyle -05 thats a direct ripoff from the automag(or AGD ripoffed ICD blowforwards to long ago?) only difference is a solinoid/board and an lpr to act as the spring.
The bolt looks like an automagbolt but the sealing oring is on the boltstem instead of in the powertube.
Mine is crazy inefficient 500paintballs out of 68/4500cold fill, i can hear how its overdwelling with each shot :rolleyes: but it got better with monkey poo and no way to set dwell or antiboltstick on it stock...

With my pneu tac 1 and longest spring im happy to get 900 out of a cold fill 68/4500 but with good paint 290-290-290-290 fps is no problem over chrono.
Without pneu almost 100more out of the tank.


Actually Jerry Dobbins had permission from Tom Kaye to use elements of the 'Mag in his markers. I agree, FreeStyles are not as efficient as they could be. Plus they can be a bear to tech if you have the wrong durometer O-rings.

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#12 Eskimo

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:21 PM

correct me if im wrong, But didn the Classic valve and the Level 7 get better efficiancy then the X-valve and the level ten?

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#13 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 03:07 PM

yes, the level 10 is less efficient because of how the anti-chop works. It is constantly venting a bit of air as the bolt moves forward, that way if the bolt hits an obstruction all the pressure is vented and barely any force is put on the obstruction.
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#14 warbeak2099

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 12:26 PM

Yea I've always been surprised at how many people use Tac-Ones for scenario play. I'd think you'd want as much efficiency as you could get for that type of playing. I never use my Mag in woods play lol, only on the speedball field where I can get fills more frequently.

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#15 chewiestmonkey

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:40 AM

Huh, for some reason i was always under the impression that mags got great efficiency
guess not! :unsure:
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#16 Snipez4664

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:33 AM

Huh, for some reason i was always under the impression that mags got great efficiency
guess not! :unsure:


I've seen Mag-fans say things like 1700 shots from a 68/45. The fact of the matter is the mag bolt acts like a variable restrictor with position - as you tighten the powertube seal you gain efficiency but will lose the claim to a lower breech pressure. I also suspect that a fresh bolt return spring would increase mag efficiency by a good bit, especially if you have one of the Rogue lighter bolts.
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#17 warbeak2099

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 10:46 AM

I've seen Mag-fans say things like 1700 shots from a 68/45. The fact of the matter is the mag bolt acts like a variable restrictor with position - as you tighten the powertube seal you gain efficiency but will lose the claim to a lower breech pressure. I also suspect that a fresh bolt return spring would increase mag efficiency by a good bit, especially if you have one of the Rogue lighter bolts.


Uh, I'm sorry but either you heard them wrong or they were lunatics. Mags get around 1k shots off a 68/45, that's it. Also, what are you talking about tightening the powertube seal? Do you mean the powertube tip? That has to be fully tightened no matter what. Also, Rogue never made his lightened bolts.

Have you ever owned, shot, or worked on a mag? It sounds like you have no clue what you're talking about. Mags get average efficiency at best. They can't shoot deeper than about 700-800psi into the tank. There's not a whole lot you can do to tweak them enough to increase their efficiency much. Maybe you can get 25 more shots per fill out of a fresh bolt spring or by switching to a lvl 7 and using a fast enough hopper, but there's no way you'd get more than 1100 shots on a 68/45. That's even stretching it.

Edited by warbeak2099, 29 July 2009 - 10:47 AM.

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#18 cockerpunk

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:17 AM

warbeak, with a .679 i typically can beat 1100 off a 68/45. sometimes as good as 1200.

i understand what lurker is saying, and it makes sense to me. a much tighter fit would also make the gun cycle faster ...

Edited by cockerpunk, 29 July 2009 - 11:17 AM.

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#19 warbeak2099

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:45 AM

warbeak, with a .679 i typically can beat 1100 off a 68/45. sometimes as good as 1200.

i understand what lurker is saying, and it makes sense to me. a much tighter fit would also make the gun cycle faster ...


A tighter fit on what other than the bore? I shoot a .682 and my Mag (tweaked to its fullest lol) gets between 1000-1100, no more. They just aren't good on gas. To hear someone claiming 1700 off a 68/45 is absurd.

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#20 cockerpunk

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:46 AM

oh i meant a tighter fit in the power tube.

sorry, i should have clarified that statement.
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#21 Snipez4664

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:01 PM

No, he's right, I have absolutely no understanding of pneumatic systems, and, truth be told, have never even owned a paintball marker.
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#22 warbeak2099

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 01:19 PM

oh i meant a tighter fit in the power tube.

sorry, i should have clarified that statement.


See this is what I'm not understanding. What tighter fit in the powertube? Are you talking about a tighter carrier in the case of a lvl 10? Or a tighter space in the case of a lvl 7? Getting that snug fit will still yield only average efficiency. The gun still won't be able to shoot deeper than 700-800psi into the tank. You're losing a lot to that.

And snipez, you know what I meant. I meant it sounds like you don't have too much experience with Mags. It almost sounded like you believe those people who claimed 1700 shots. That's absurd.

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#23 cockerpunk

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 01:27 PM

lets not get snarky here.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#24 Snipez4664

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 02:09 PM

And snipez, you know what I meant. I meant it sounds like you don't have too much experience with Mags. It almost sounded like you believe those people who claimed 1700 shots. That's absurd.


My belief on that one is that they were probably shooting at a VERY low field velocity. Certainly I don't consider mags an inherently efficient design, and sensitive to tank pressure to boot.
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#25 Z3R0

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 03:38 PM

Yea if they're getting 1700 shots per fill on a Mag, there's no way they're shooting around 290FPS (which seems to be the standard for efficiency tests). Maybe in the 230-240 range... maybe lower :P.

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EDIT: Or they're not using a 68/45...

Edited by Z3R0, 29 July 2009 - 03:39 PM.

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#26 Eskimo

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 09:56 PM

a 90/4500 maybe?

I think that in the era of 2009 right now we could make the automag a bit more effective in terms of efficiancy.
Im still hoping AGD decides pull up thier socks and get back into this.
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#27 warbeak2099

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:23 AM

My belief on that one is that they were probably shooting at a VERY low field velocity. Certainly I don't consider mags an inherently efficient design, and sensitive to tank pressure to boot.


They'd have to be shooting well below any field velocity lol.

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#28 wilko

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 06:17 AM

I'm surprised to hear people talk about a certain size bottle not giving them enough shots when they are talking about a certain kind of marker like the automags.
I'm an automag (tac-one) player, and one that only started playing a year or so ago. The thing is, if you want a marker like that, you have to decide if the advantages of it (sturdiness, reliability, high possible rate of fire for a purely mechanical marker, no need for batteries, compact size, low profile with a warp feed body, not very common marker on most fields) outweigh the disadvantages (that it uses more air). For that exact reason I have immediately bought a 1,5 liter (about 88ci, I guess) 300 bar (4500 psi) tank for it. I don't really care that other markers get more or less shots from that tank, because it's what works for this marker.

As for having enough air or balls before running out of one or the other, that's solely a matter of priority: if it's important to be able to shoot 1700 balls on one tank, get a different (more efficient) marker or an even larger tank. If other factors are a higher priority to you, go for them. Buy what suits your demands and style of play. The most air efficient marker does not automatically make it the best choice of marker for everyone.
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#29 Troy

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 08:08 AM

I'm surprised to hear people talk about a certain size bottle not giving them enough shots when they are talking about a certain kind of marker like the automags.
I'm an automag (tac-one) player, and one that only started playing a year or so ago. The thing is, if you want a marker like that, you have to decide if the advantages of it (sturdiness, reliability, high possible rate of fire for a purely mechanical marker, no need for batteries, compact size, low profile with a warp feed body, not very common marker on most fields) outweigh the disadvantages (that it uses more air). For that exact reason I have immediately bought a 1,5 liter (about 88ci, I guess) 300 bar (4500 psi) tank for it. I don't really care that other markers get more or less shots from that tank, because it's what works for this marker.

As for having enough air or balls before running out of one or the other, that's solely a matter of priority: if it's important to be able to shoot 1700 balls on one tank, get a different (more efficient) marker or an even larger tank. If other factors are a higher priority to you, go for them. Buy what suits your demands and style of play. The most air efficient marker does not automatically make it the best choice of marker for everyone.


I'm glad that you know how efficient Automags are, and you are familiar with their constraints, but there are several people that have posted comments saying they, in fact, didn't know automags were as inefficient as they are. I'm sure there are many others that were unaware as well (including myself) that haven't commented on this either.
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#30 warbeak2099

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 04:39 PM

I'm surprised to hear people talk about a certain size bottle not giving them enough shots when they are talking about a certain kind of marker like the automags.
I'm an automag (tac-one) player, and one that only started playing a year or so ago. The thing is, if you want a marker like that, you have to decide if the advantages of it (sturdiness, reliability, high possible rate of fire for a purely mechanical marker, no need for batteries, compact size, low profile with a warp feed body, not very common marker on most fields) outweigh the disadvantages (that it uses more air). For that exact reason I have immediately bought a 1,5 liter (about 88ci, I guess) 300 bar (4500 psi) tank for it. I don't really care that other markers get more or less shots from that tank, because it's what works for this marker.

As for having enough air or balls before running out of one or the other, that's solely a matter of priority: if it's important to be able to shoot 1700 balls on one tank, get a different (more efficient) marker or an even larger tank. If other factors are a higher priority to you, go for them. Buy what suits your demands and style of play. The most air efficient marker does not automatically make it the best choice of marker for everyone.


No one said Mags are terrible guns because they're gas hogs. I have one and love it. I have other guns for when I need efficiency.

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#31 chewiestmonkey

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 08:43 PM

im in the process of thinking about weather i should get an automag, since my 'cockers in pump form right now, and i dont really want to change it

but i miss having a nice semi.

and i have a q-loader which would be awsome on a mag.

thing is that there more expensive than getting another 'cocker, (since i already have the Pnues and getting a body and trigger frame wouldnt be that pricy) and i have No expeirence tuning a mag. ive never even shot one! on the other hand i know my way around a sniper/cocker like the back of my hand.
but i like what ive heard about mags alot.

that was kinda OT, sorry.

~On Topic~
doesn anybody know WHY mags are inefficent?
Ive heard something in this thread about the lvl 10 bolt leaking air slightly to provide the balancing effect to eliminate chopping, but even the older valves are still inefficent from what ive heard. whats going on?
~coming from a guilty mag noob~ :D
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#32 wilko

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:10 AM

im in the process of thinking about weather i should get an automag, since my 'cockers in pump form right now, and i dont really want to change it

but i miss having a nice semi.

and i have a q-loader which would be awsome on a mag.

thing is that there more expensive than getting another 'cocker, (since i already have the Pnues and getting a body and trigger frame wouldnt be that pricy) and i have No expeirence tuning a mag. ive never even shot one! on the other hand i know my way around a sniper/cocker like the back of my hand.
but i like what ive heard about mags alot.

that was kinda OT, sorry.

I have a q-loader on my tac-one, and I like the way it works together with a warp left body to keep a low profile, high rate of fire and no need for batteries: http://kayaker.nl/pb...1-22-6-09-2.JPG

~On Topic~
doesn anybody know WHY mags are inefficent?
Ive heard something in this thread about the lvl 10 bolt leaking air slightly to provide the balancing effect to eliminate chopping, but even the older valves are still inefficent from what ive heard. whats going on?
~coming from a guilty mag noob~ :D


IIRC the level 10 bolt only leaks when a ball is not right in front of the bolt, to prevent chopping that ball. Otherwise it doesn't leak unless you have a problem with it (too big a carrier or a worn o-ring). It does use more air but you get the RT effect (with pretty decent rates of fire) in return. Working of a level10 bolt: http://www.automags....ndex.shtml#work

But I wouldn't be surprised if a Tippmann with RT trigger also uses more air than one without it. Small price to pay IMO.
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#33 Z3R0

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:42 AM

The Level 10 and the RT effect have nothing to do with each other... the RT effect comes from the valve, not the bolt. And as you can see here:

http://www.zdspb.com...evel10_6fps.gif

Even when the cycle isn't obstructed, the Level 10 does actually leak a small amount of gas.

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#34 NovaPB

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:10 AM

/Begin useless historical discussion.

You have to understand that the automag was designed in a different paintball era. A lot of people still played pump and semis were still in their infancy. If you shot 500 balls a day in this period you were trigger happy. CO2 was the what everyone used and HPA was unheard of. A filled 20oz tank was more than enough to last the day.

If you look back at some of the other popular guns at that time, like the Sheridan VM-68 (http://www.vmempire....kvms/st-vm4.jpg) that were one of the first semis and very popular, they had many problems. The big big problem this gun had was that it was blow-back (in some ways similar to todays poppets). What this meant is that on cold days or if you were firing heavily and chilling your CO2 tank, the tank would not have enough pressure to recock the gun. The gun would do this wierd full-auto effect because the bolt was not catching on the trigger sear so it would chop balls. A lot of balls. In addition, your opponents immediately knew you were a sitting duck (devious players eventually learned to fake this...). These problems were not limited to the VM-68. The only way you could use a gun like this in the cold would be to follow the hammer forward with your thumb (hammers had a pin sticking out on the side you used to manually cock the gun) and prevent the gun from recocking. You would then cock manually. It was like having a pump except that an actual pump could be fired faster.

In essence, you could not "get on the trigger" back then because your tank would chill and the gun would not recock.

Now enter Tom Kaye and the automag. The automag was designed to overcome this problem. It was designed to recock at all costs hence its blow forward/spring back design. If the tank was cold you would have shoot down problems, but the automag would recock. The problem with this design is that when you blow foward you have to move the bolt against the spring that is designed to recock the gun. Thus, it is not terribly efficient though it was unmatched in its reliability. On a chilly fall morning about the only semi that would work was the automag.

And again I stress, efficiency was never a concern at that time.

Dammit. Now I want to sell my ego and buy yet another automag. My upgrade path looks like this: GunX. Automag. Gun Y. Automag. Gun Z. Automag.

/End useless historical discussion.

Edited by NovaPB, 03 August 2009 - 09:13 AM.


#35 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:54 AM

we have really gone past the science, and as fun as that is, its not punkworks material.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

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#36 warbeak2099

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:06 PM

~On Topic~
doesn anybody know WHY mags are inefficent?
Ive heard something in this thread about the lvl 10 bolt leaking air slightly to provide the balancing effect to eliminate chopping, but even the older valves are still inefficent from what ive heard. whats going on?
~coming from a guilty mag noob~ :D


Low volume. The air passages inside the valve are very tiny because the guns were designed to operate on HP. After the integrated regulator though, the gun really only operates on 400psi. 400psi with low volume air passages doesn't allow for very high consistency. So, you need to run about 800psi into the reg to get the gun to shoot consistently at a reasonable ROF. That means that after your tank reaches 800psi, your Mag isn't going to be shooting anymore. Mags are reasonably EFFICIENT when it comes to shots per PSI, they just can't shoot very deep into the tank. You're basically getting about 1100 shots off 3700psi on a 68/45. You're losing about 200-300 with that 800psi. 1300-1400 from a 68/45 wouldn't be terrible (although not as good as some other spoolers/blow forwards). To get that though, you'd need larger air passages and a lower operating pressure.

A lot of blow forward spoolers today are pretty much answers to the Mag's problem. They're certainly not "next gen" Mags, but they are some interesting ideas of what the Mag might have become had TK decided to create a higher volume, more efficient gun. Now I'm not going to ditch my Mag for a G3, but I certainly wouldn't shoot a Mag over some modern day spoolers in a tourny. It started a great pattern in gun development (spool valves) and it's very unique in it's own right, but the Mag has been surpassed technologically. It's sad since AGD was always on the cutting edge. Oh well, that doesn't stop a lot of us from continuing to shoot our Mags for what they are. Classic pieces of paintball history that can still make their own place as a niche product because of their unsurpassed quality and reliability as well as unique feel. Other than that, there are better guns out there for serious play. For rec play, my Mag is a favorite.

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#37 Troy

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:38 PM

That means that after your tank reaches 800psi, your Mag isn't going to be shooting anymore. Mags are reasonably EFFICIENT when it comes to shots per PSI, they just can't shoot very deep into the tank.


This doesn't make sense. The overwhelming majority of tank regs out there output ~800psi. When your tank pressure dips below 800psi with such a tank your marker stops shooting... and it doesn't matter which marker you are shooting. I don't give a crap if your secondary reg is set at 2psi or 2000psi, if the tank pressure goes below 800psi on a high pressure reg it stops outputting gas. No one is talking about running with a low pressure tank verses a high pressure tank. We are talking about efficency (shots per psi). It's okay if you don't have the answer as to why a mag is less efficient than a normal marker, but guessing is bad.

Edited by Troy, 04 August 2009 - 08:50 AM.

\m/

#38 warbeak2099

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 08:05 PM

This doesn't make sense. The overwhelming majority of tank regs out there output ~800psi. When your tank pressure dips below 800psi with such a tank your marker stops shooting... and it doesn't matter which marker you are shooting. I don't give a crap if your secondary reg is set at 2psi or 2000psi, if the tank pressure goes below 800psi on a high pressure reg it stops outputting gas. No one is talking about running with a low pressure tank verses a high pressure tank. We are talking about efficency (shots per psi). It's okay if you don't have the answer as to why a mag is less efficient than a normal marker, but guessing is bad.


Is that why my HP Crossfire shoots down to 200psi on my Quest? There was no guessing in my post, that was all fact. The reg on an HP tank regulates anything above 800-850psi down to 800-850psi. If there's less than that in the tank, it will still get through as whatever pressure it is. If there's 700psi left in the tank, the reg isn't going to regulate it down any less than that. It will get through to the 2ndry reg as 700psi. Understand now how a tank reg works?

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#39 wmassregulators

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:10 AM

That means that after your tank reaches 800psi, your Mag isn't going to be shooting anymore. Mags are reasonably EFFICIENT when it comes to shots per PSI, they just can't shoot very deep into the tank.


This doesn't make sense. The overwhelming majority of tank regs out there output ~800psi. When your tank pressure dips below 800psi with such a tank your marker stops shooting... and it doesn't matter which marker you are shooting. I don't give a crap if your secondary reg is set at 2psi or 2000psi, if the tank pressure goes below 800psi on a high pressure reg it stops outputting gas. No one is talking about running with a low pressure tank verses a high pressure tank. We are talking about efficency (shots per psi). It's okay if you don't have the answer as to why a mag is less efficient than a normal marker, but guessing is bad.



if that were true, you would never be able to fully empty your tank.

a regulator will stop a tank from delivering MORE then its set psi, it can and does deliver less. My viking runs fine down to 180 or so psi out of a 68/45 with a 800 psi reg.

the mag was quit efficient for its time. Tom was always ahead of the curve in design, I really wish he would make a come back. paintball would be a better place
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#40 riddler

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 01:03 AM

if that were true, you would never be able to fully empty your tank.


Viking operating pressure != Automag operating pressure.

Once the tank's output drops below a mag's operating pressure, all you have is a gun with a trigger that pops back out when you pull it.

Good luck shooting the tank dry.

Edited by riddler, 24 August 2009 - 01:03 AM.





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