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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:30 PM

We tested a bunch of tank regs - here's the vid and data:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c.../v/Xn4X387b85A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

http://spreadsheets....amp;output=html

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there are two tabs on the data sheet - one is output pressure for various input pressures for each reg - the other one is how much the regulator crept over 5 minutes.

and finally, here's something that amuses us:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c.../v/Bj8ScksTLMI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

here's an update - we tested another reg that Guerrilla provided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQO961yTIWo

Edited by brycelarson, 12 December 2009 - 03:49 PM.


#2 ETEKBALLN

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:31 PM

1st

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#3 sticktodrum

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:40 PM

The Myth reg seems to work beautifully! :)
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#4 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:42 PM

The Myth reg seems to work beautifully! :)


check out the input:output ratio on the myth ;)
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#5 Z3R0

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:46 PM

The Myth reg seems to work beautifully! :)


check out the input:output ratio on the myth ;)


Yea... I just noticed that. What the hell is going on there?

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#6 sticktodrum

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:49 PM

That's terrible. What do you think caused that?
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#7 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:56 PM

That's terrible. What do you think caused that?


too much D control. not enough I control

ill explain it in a youtube video in a couple of days.
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#8 Chace365

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:02 PM

Sooo... CP can we expect a tank recharge rate test between some adjustables anytime soon?
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#9 Dragon1291

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:03 PM

So ninja Wins. Coolio.
Could you continue the creep test? Espcially for the myth, cause it spikes, then goes back down, but i'm curious if it will spike up again...

#10 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:05 PM

Sooo... CP can we expect a tank recharge rate test between some adjustables anytime soon?


we dont have a transducer, so that is the one thing we cannot measure ... yet

azreal has started posting some tank reg stuff, he has a transducer.

the three really big factors in regs are creep, input:output, and flow. we can measure the first two, which we did. we dont have anything to accurately measure flow or recharge.
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#11 Chace365

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:09 PM

How does a transducer work?
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#12 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:12 PM

How does a transducer work?


it measures voltage using a computer. so you can scan the volt meter at thousands of times per second, thus you can catch very very very fast events, like recharge. gauges arn't accurate for those peaks and valleys, nor are they fast enough because they have heavy masses to move (like springs and stuff).
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#13 Z3R0

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:14 PM

So in layman's terms... magic? :P

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#14 Chace365

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:15 PM

How does a transducer work?


it measures voltage using a computer. so you can scan the volt meter at thousands of times per second, thus you can catch very very very fast events, like recharge. gauges arn't accurate for those peaks and valleys, nor are they fast enough because they have heavy masses to move (like springs and stuff).


I thought we were measuring air flow, not electrical current?
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#15 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:19 PM

How does a transducer work?


it measures voltage using a computer. so you can scan the volt meter at thousands of times per second, thus you can catch very very very fast events, like recharge. gauges arn't accurate for those peaks and valleys, nor are they fast enough because they have heavy masses to move (like springs and stuff).


I thought we were measuring air flow, not electrical current?


well it measures pressure. so you stick it on the reservoir that is being vented and you can watch the pressure drop, and come back up. the time it takes is a good indicator of flow though the restriction, which is the reg.

it does this with basically a strain gauge. which is just a variable resistor, that varies with length. so the pressure pushes against the transducer and moves it a couple thou and that changes the resistance, which changes the voltage. then you can compute the pressure, and graph it.
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#16 Chace365

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:25 PM

Can I make a suggestion on the tank regs you and Bryce use?
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#17 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:28 PM

Can I make a suggestion on the tank regs you and Bryce use?


when we can do it, sure. we dont have a transducer, and its not in the near future, so ... yeah ...
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#18 Chace365

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:30 PM

Can I make a suggestion on the tank regs you and Bryce use?


when we can do it, sure. we dont have a transducer, and its not in the near future, so ... yeah ...


Oh. I assumed it was going to be in the near future.
Do you have an estimate as to when you can obtain a transducer?
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#19 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:33 PM

Can I make a suggestion on the tank regs you and Bryce use?


when we can do it, sure. we dont have a transducer, and its not in the near future, so ... yeah ...


Oh. I assumed it was going to be in the near future.
Do you have an estimate as to when you can obtain a transducer?


next time we have a lot of money and the time to dink around with it and buy a DAQ. you typically need to write code and such or run Matlab or something, which i dont have a license for.

its a ways off.
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#20 Troy

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:07 PM

This is interesting... but, the sample size (one reg per brand) is pretty small. I wish there was a way for you to test multiple ninja tanks, multiple crossfire tanks, etc. I know that's asking for a lot, but good job regardless.
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#21 TaintedEvil

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:30 PM

By the look of that data sheet I'd say that Ninja is 1st with Crossfire at a close 2nd.

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#22 Dragon1291

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:39 AM

Well you would hope that most tank mfg's quality control is good enough for just one sample. I mean, really, the most they would need to test is 5 regs of the same brand. I would think that would be a hassel to take off the big gages.

#23 Nate 660

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:41 AM

Can I make a suggestion on the tank regs you and Bryce use?


when we can do it, sure. we dont have a transducer, and its not in the near future, so ... yeah ...


Oh. I assumed it was going to be in the near future.
Do you have an estimate as to when you can obtain a transducer?


next time we have a lot of money and the time to dink around with it and buy a DAQ. you typically need to write code and such or run Matlab or something, which i dont have a license for.

its a ways off.


Fuck MATLAB, that program is hell when you are expected to teach yourself =D

#24 brycelarson

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:09 AM

Well you would hope that most tank mfg's quality control is good enough for just one sample. I mean, really, the most they would need to test is 5 regs of the same brand. I would think that would be a hassel to take off the big gages.


The test isn't that bad - our version comes in at 10 minutes a tank - once we're set up. We feel that what we're really testing is the design - not the quality control of a manufacturer. I'm sure that the differences from reg to reg would mostly be in output pressure - you know, some regs are slightly higher, some slightly lower. With the designs the same - the behavior should be very similar from reg to reg.

For example, the Myth reg - it was very stable in our 5 minute test - which is the good part of the design. It fluctuated a ton each show (second video) - which is the under-damped part of the design. We would expect other Myths to react similarly.

#25 CrazyLittle

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:19 AM

mmmm why did the Myth creep downwards in pressure?

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#26 brycelarson

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:22 AM

mmmm why did the Myth creep downwards in pressure?


our theory is tank cooling. We filled the tanks - they warmed a bit, then we let them settle to close to room temp. They likely cooled a bit more over the 5 minutes.

#27 Special Ed

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:13 AM

Good data, thanks again.

It is interesting that the GA Myth has such a large variability of output pressure after each shot. It would be interesting to see how that affects recharge rate (as well as to know the recharge rate).

#28 brycelarson

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:17 AM

Good data, thanks again.

It is interesting that the GA Myth has such a large variability of output pressure after each shot. It would be interesting to see how that affects recharge rate (as well as to know the recharge rate).


we think it's fast - really, really fast - which is part of the problem. it's sort of lost the ability to self-correct. So, the question is - is a 160 psi swing every other shot going to hurt your gun's performance? I don't know. It seems like it might.

#29 Z3R0

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:22 AM

I guess that would then depend on the input/output ratio of your inline reg... something with a really flat curve would be a good choice with a Myth then. And I'm guessing running a Myth on something unregulated might give you odd results (unregged Spyder or Tippmann for example)...

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#30 Lament

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 11:02 AM

What kind of PMI reg did you use? Was it a PSI PMI, a Chinese version of the PSI PMI, or the newer Reactor? Also, what did you do with each reg? I mean, were they brand new, put on a tank and off you went? Were they donated by other local users, so there is no telling how much use they have had? If it was the second, were they cleaned and lubed before your test, or left as they were?

Good test, I guess. Something else that you can do, that would be easily enough to check, would be show the output pressure of each tank, at various pressures. Such as show when the tanks are filled at 4500 PSI, and then what each output pressure is as the tank is emptied. you can do 100 PSI intervals, or maybe 500 PSI intervals. As I understand, each reg will actually drop in pressure output as the tank pressure drops, and I have heard that in can drop a couple of hundred PSI over the typical usage of the tank.

I actually have had a similar idea as doing that last test, but with my $5 (Retail) small gauges that you find on the tanks and can get for other equipment (I just got a 1200 PSI gauge), I am pretty sure that you guys are going to get a better reading than I will.

By the look of that data sheet I'd say that Ninja is 1st with Crossfire at a close 2nd.


I may be reading the graph and spreadsheet wrong, but I would say that the Myth is actually a more accurate 2nd, with the Crossfire being a very close 3rd to the Myth. Afterall, the Ninja stayed at the output pressure the whole five minutes. The Myth started at it's pressure, raised up 10 PSI after the first 30 seconds, stayed there for 30 seconds, then settled back down to 700 PSI for the remainder of the time. The Crossfire started at 780 PSI, raised up to about 790 PSI after 30 seconds, then raised up to 800 PSI, until the last minute, when it raised up to 810 PSI, and stayed there until the end.

I know that CP thinks that Myths are junk, but how about a video showing the outputs of the other regs? It is easy to slew others opinions if you only show one reg having the 160 PSI variance, and now show the others being more consistent, if that is what you are trying to claim.

*EDIT* I misspoke, the Dye would actually be a close 3rd place and the Crossfire being in 4th place. The Dye reg raised up 20 PSI in the first 30 seconds, and then stayed there.

Edited by Lament, 18 August 2009 - 11:10 AM.


#31 brycelarson

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:21 PM

Good test, I guess. Something else that you can do, that would be easily enough to check, would be show the output pressure of each tank, at various pressures. Such as show when the tanks are filled at 4500 PSI, and then what each output pressure is as the tank is emptied.


we did that - take a look at the link to the data sheet - there is a set of tank pressures to reg output pressures

I know that CP thinks that Myths are junk, but how about a video showing the outputs of the other regs? It is easy to slew others opinions if you only show one reg having the 160 PSI variance, and now show the others being more consistent, if that is what you are trying to claim.


None of the other regs bounced around when we shot - just dropped to the bottom pressure that you see on the creep test - then did whatever is shown on the graph. IE - the Ninja bounced low, then came back up and stayed there. The PMI dropped then slowly increased - as the graph shows.

#32 UV Halo

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 06:48 PM

we think it's fast - really, really fast - which is part of the problem. it's sort of lost the ability to self-correct. So, the question is - is a 160 psi swing every other shot going to hurt your gun's performance? I don't know. It seems like it might.


I think the answer to this question will depend upon the secondary/inline reg's input output ratio. For example, if the GA Myth tank was hooked up a gun with a Palmer's Fatty Stabilizer (advertized as a 92:1 ratio) then, you'll see a 1.7PSI jump to your breech from shot to shot. So, on-gun performance may be dependent upon the tank and inline reg combo. This may explain why I get great FPS consistancy (ref's frequently comment on it) when I'm running my Dye Throttle fed into my Ion via a AKA 2Liter+ Dual reg.

So, I suggest that the next test be on inline regs :-D

good Job guys!

#33 IhaveNoSoul

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:35 PM

does the myth reg suck that bad that i should buy a new one like a ninja?

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#34 orangataun

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:26 PM

Were all the regs broken in past that 1 case mark or whatever it is? I know my PE sucked for consistency until after about a case and a half, then it got pretty tight.
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#35 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 06:54 AM

Were all the regs broken in past that 1 case mark or whatever it is? I know my PE sucked for consistency until after about a case and a half, then it got pretty tight.


yes, and how do you know?

#36 orangataun

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 06:59 AM

I was using it on my a-5 before i got my ego and my velocity was everywhere for that first case.
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#37 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:00 AM

I was using it on my a-5 before i got my ego and my velocity was everywhere for that first case.


I will suggest, sight unseen, that you were shooting bad paint for the first case.

#38 orangataun

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:06 AM

i used the same paint the next time, so unless the batch to batch was horrendous and i didnt notice (which i check my paint) i doubt the 20 fps range dropping to about 8 fps range from there on out would be due to paint.
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#39 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:57 AM

i used the same paint the next time, so unless the batch to batch was horrendous and i didnt notice (which i check my paint) i doubt the 20 fps range dropping to about 8 fps range from there on out would be due to paint.


sure, it's possible. The reason I'm always skeptical of things like this is that no-one has ever shown me data that there is a break-in period on things like this. In fact, if you're just going off a few shots over a chrono - then you don't really know.

As to paint - yes, I've seen bigger swings due only to paint - especially if you were shooting a barrel close to the size of the paint.

#40 Lament

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:13 AM

My thought to that is that the reg is going to need you using it more than only one case to actually break in. I am uncertain as to the specifics, but I would think that, much like many of the markers out there, it would need the equivalent of 10 cases to be broken in properly. And yes, same paint, from batch to batch, and even sometimes, with lower end paint, in the same batch, do vary quite a bit.

#41 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:36 AM

My thought to that is that the reg is going to need you using it more than only one case to actually break in. I am uncertain as to the specifics, but I would think that, much like many of the markers out there, it would need the equivalent of 10 cases to be broken in properly. And yes, same paint, from batch to batch, and even sometimes, with lower end paint, in the same batch, do vary quite a bit.


We're still on line to do a break-in test. I don't know that anyone actually has any information about whether guns / regs etc really need to break in. It's entirely possible that the improvement that people think they see from their equipment is just them acclimating to their new gun.

#42 orangataun

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:41 AM

barrel match...haha.. sorry, i was using the stock a-5 barrel, so thats a funny thought. Also, you use 20 shots in a lot of your tests for a sufficient sample size. I was kinda put off by how inconsistent my shots were up and down, so i put a good 20-30 over the chrono to just get an idea of what was going on. it wasnt just 3 shots and guess. Also, i was shooting draxxus bronze both times, so i wasnt having major issues from low end paint. It seems to me looking back that it was either a really minute difference in the batches that could cause something weird, or something with the reg. Something i wonder is if the regs do need break in, sure it might take more than a case and a half like i did to be really broken in, but would the break in process be linear or on a curve? Is it possible that if "breaking in" is possible with regs that it could improve really quickly then have a small gain over several more cases?
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#43 Ced

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:47 AM

The Myth reg's performances thwarts my plans of obtaining one.

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#44 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:58 AM

Something i wonder is if the regs do need break in, sure it might take more than a case and a half like i did to be really broken in, but would the break in process be linear or on a curve? Is it possible that if "breaking in" is possible with regs that it could improve really quickly then have a small gain over several more cases?


I'll leave most of the theoretical ideas to the engineers - I'm just a guy who thinks about this stuff - but there are a couple of ways that I could see it going. If the materials used for the parts of the reg that seal up need to get seated - to really work their way into the final shape and interaction with other parts - then I guess you might see a very quick plateau - then very little change. If it's the metal parts (springs, washers etc) that need to get to their final strength and flexibility - then I could see it being linear. I don't really know - which is why we would like to do the test.

We figure that testing break in on a gun is the best bet - since there are so many things going on - it should give us a good first look - sort of the test for IF break-in happens. If we find that it does - we can then design tests to isolate and document what that break-in is.

and yes, unless you're doing samples over the chrono of 20 + then you don't really know what's going on. Sounds like you did check thoroughly. I've had guns do the same number 6 shots in a row - then jump 12 fps. It's all about the aggregation of a bunch of data - not the first few.

#45 orangataun

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:05 PM

*hopes the tests prove IMPROVEMENT from gradual wear and tear* haha :P
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#46 visor

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 02:29 PM

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.

#47 brycelarson

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 03:03 PM

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.



well, none of the regs we tested put out less than 500 psi. It's impossible that the reg would output more than the pressure that's in the tank - so there's really no reason to test that low. with the tank pressure at 500 psi - the myth should be outputting 500 psi - as should all of the other tanks.

#48 cockerpunk

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 03:21 PM

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.


well actually bryce thats not correct. under the "output pressure" the tank will still regulate the air.

the issue is ballenece, if the reg is well ballenced, then it should maintain higher pressure for longer. im just judging the results of this test im going to say that the myth is not ballanced well, so it probably wont do that very effectively.
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#49 UV Halo

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 03:39 PM

One thing that makes me wonder about the validity of this test is that one product sample is being used to characterize the design of the sample. Now, 20 regs of each type may be a bit of overkill, I think it would be advisable to not hold onto these findings until more samples are gathered.

Possible things that could affect the performance- design, reg wear, lubrication state, dirt, etc.

GA seems like an up front company, could you contact them to see what they have to say about that output inconsistancy?

#50 brycelarson

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:07 PM

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.


well actually bryce thats not correct. under the "output pressure" the tank will still regulate the air.

the issue is ballenece, if the reg is well ballenced, then it should maintain higher pressure for longer. im just judging the results of this test im going to say that the myth is not ballanced well, so it probably wont do that very effectively.


right, but testing below 750 psi means you've now got less air in the tank than you want coming out of the other end of the reg - which means no matter how linear the reg is - you're still going to be under-feeding your marker.




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