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#51 visor

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 05:43 PM

What about the secondary reg on a low pressure gun? I guess what I am asking is can one reg give more shots out of a tank than another?

the other thing you have to keep in mind is the low end cut off.

Once the source pressure (bottle) drops below the regulation point of the tank reg, air should flow freely from the tank to the secondary reg on the marker. If the tank reg doesn't allow air to pass at the lower pressure, it essentially cuts off any usable air, and THAT can reduce the number of shots, but I don't imagine it would be anywhere near a pod's worth due to the necessary volume of air.


This was posted on PbNation in a thread on whether the Myth or any reg could give more shots. So is it true that at a certain point a reg will stop outputting air even with air still in the bottle.

Sorry if it is a stupid question but it has me wondering

#52 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:13 PM

What about the secondary reg on a low pressure gun? I guess what I am asking is can one reg give more shots out of a tank than another?

the other thing you have to keep in mind is the low end cut off.

Once the source pressure (bottle) drops below the regulation point of the tank reg, air should flow freely from the tank to the secondary reg on the marker. If the tank reg doesn't allow air to pass at the lower pressure, it essentially cuts off any usable air, and THAT can reduce the number of shots, but I don't imagine it would be anywhere near a pod's worth due to the necessary volume of air.


This was posted on PbNation in a thread on whether the Myth or any reg could give more shots. So is it true that at a certain point a reg will stop outputting air even with air still in the bottle.

Sorry if it is a stupid question but it has me wondering


This is absolutely not true: you can push the pin down and empty the tank completely. So no matter how low the input pressure, the regulator will always allow air to flow.

Gordon, Bryce, if you do suddenly get the interest and funding to do some tests that require Data Acquisition, I have a full version of MATLAB on my computer and will be happy to do the data gathering and analysis. Pressure transducers can be found on Ebay for under $100, as can USB DAQ cards. I've been looking into getting a DAQ card for my own interests, if I do I'll let you know.

Edited by Leftystrikesback, 20 August 2009 - 09:30 PM.

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#53 azreal

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 11:01 PM

Finding a good transducer on Ebay is a bit difficult. I spent 6 months obtaining my 3. Of course 2 of them seem to be broke right now =( I have no idea what happened but they only read .50 volts no matter what. Now I still have my original which is beastly and works like a charm. I would love to get some gem sensors but there 250 price tag puts a dent into that. Plus to be honest with most tank regs I have tested as long as your HP your decent. Some variance but nothing huge, of course adjustables still rule them all but almost no one uses those these days. The only interesting thing I have found is you need at least 1.5k in your tank. Preferably 2k.

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#54 Poe

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 10:28 AM

Could anyone link to a diagram/cutaway for each of these regulators? I think it would really help the discussion. Maybe even support further tests of similar regulator designs.

Edit: Punctuation

Edited by Poe, 21 August 2009 - 10:29 AM.


#55 brycelarson

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 10:33 AM

Could anyone link to a diagram/cutaway for each of these regulators? I think it would really help the discussion. Maybe even support further tests of similar regulator designs.

Edit: Punctuation


yeah, a diagram of the operational method of each would be interesting to compare to the results.

#56 Poe

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:26 AM

Could anyone link to a diagram/cutaway for each of these regulators? I think it would really help the discussion. Maybe even support further tests of similar regulator designs.

Edit: Punctuation


yeah, a diagram of the operational method of each would be interesting to compare to the results.


Just FYI for anyone that doesn't visit his site regularly...

Andy has some nice renderings of vertical regulators:

http://www.zdspb.com...isc/maxflo.html

I would love to see Azreal test the Evolve Pi (6th from bottom on that web page).

#57 Poe

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:58 AM

All I could locate:

Ninja exploded view
http://static.zoovy....ninja_specs.png

Ninja manual with alternate exploded views
http://www.ninjapain...20091220092.pdf

Myth diagram
http://www.hunt101.c...atordiagram.jpg

Crossfire exploded view
http://www.sundragon...eg_exlpoded.JPG

Those three appear to be of similar design.

#58 azreal

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 12:27 PM

Poe you mean like this graph?
It was from a prototype Pi I was sent...Lord...5 years ago? Excellent reg with some finickiness.

Also in regards to the basic design I they all share the same basic design, I think the myth is hurt by its narrowness, in trying to make the smallest possible reg they had to stuff tons of guts into the threaded area with narrows air passages and creates a long skinny piston.

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#59 Poe

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 12:49 PM

Poe you mean like this graph?
It was from a prototype Pi I was sent...Lord...5 years ago? Excellent reg with some finickiness.


Fantastic. Thank you. I see you had that in your initial data after I posted. Sorry.

#60 azreal

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:41 PM

No problem, I think Evolve fixed alot of the Pi problem in their second run. Most any inline reg between 2002-2007 I have hooked up to my transducer too, some of them I no longer have the results some of them I do. Nowadays the stock regs are excellent on most markers, Dye Hyper 2 (Haven't tested the 3) and PEs regs are out of this world.

#61 MondoMor

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 07:38 PM

I've finally had time to take apart my brand new Ninja reg and compare it to my PE. The parts seem to be interchangeable, and the pistons measure within about .001" on diameters, and about .004" in overall length. The only significant differences I can find are:

1) Ninja is shorter due to some internal passage differences
2) Ninja reg piston is brass (light!) vs. PE reg's stainless steel (heavy)
3) Ninja reg uses a coiled spring vs. the PE reg's belleville stack.
4) Ninja bonnet is slightly shorter and has a shorter pin valve.
5) Ninja spring cavity is slightly shallower, which precompresses the spring as the bonnet is installed(hence the need for the bonnet tool) So you'd have to add a couple red shims if you wanted to "Ninjafy" your PE reg by buying the Ninja piston, spring, bonnet and pin valve.

I've put the PE together with Ninja internals and the Ninja together with PE internals and there doesn't seem to be any reason why either configuration wouldn't work. Heck, the bonnets seem to be interchangeable. Same dimensions, same threads.

I don't have a set of small pin gauges, but I suspect even the base hole (through which the tank air is metered into the pressure-controlled volume, and on which the seal on the small end of the piston rests) is the same diameter. This would make the pressure ratio the same, and both regs ought to have similar in:out ratios, which they do.

Makes me wonder if the PE reg's dismal creep performance was due to a crappy piston base seal.


Edit: One huge plus on the Ninja side is the really long set of threads going into the tank. The PE engages about .6" worth of threads while the Ninja extends nearly a full inch. More threads = more safety.

Edited by MondoMor, 21 August 2009 - 08:49 PM.


#62 Lament

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:40 PM

I've finally had time to take apart my brand new Ninja reg and compare it to my PE. The parts seem to be interchangeable, and the pistons measure within about .001" on diameters, and about .004" in overall length. The only significant differences I can find are:

1) Ninja is shorter due to some internal passage differences
2) Ninja reg piston is brass (light!) vs. PE reg's stainless steel (heavy)
3) Ninja reg uses a coiled spring vs. the PE reg's belleville stack.
4) Ninja bonnet is slightly shorter and has a shorter pin valve.
5) Ninja spring cavity is slightly shallower, which precompresses the spring as the bonnet is installed(hence the need for the bonnet tool) So you'd have to add a couple red shims if you wanted to "Ninjafy" your PE reg by buying the Ninja piston, spring, bonnet and pin valve.

I've put the PE together with Ninja internals and the Ninja together with PE internals and there doesn't seem to be any reason why either configuration wouldn't work. Heck, the bonnets seem to be interchangeable. Same dimensions, same threads.

I don't have a set of small pin gauges, but I suspect even the base hole (through which the tank air is metered into the pressure-controlled volume, and on which the seal on the small end of the piston rests) is the same diameter. This would make the pressure ratio the same, and both regs ought to have similar in:out ratios, which they do.

Makes me wonder if the PE reg's dismal creep performance was due to a crappy piston base seal.


Edit: One huge plus on the Ninja side is the really long set of threads going into the tank. The PE engages about .6" worth of threads while the Ninja extends nearly a full inch. More threads = more safety.


Understand, PSI (Ninja) used to make the PE regs. Not knowing which reg they used, it may have been a PSI made one, a Chinese clone (PE went to China to have the regs made for them to their specks, but cheaper), or a newer Reactor reg, which is also of Chinese manufacture. This is part of my problem with this, as cool and good as it is, there is not enough information on the part of Bryce and CP. We don't know if they were new, used, or what. If they were used, how long had they been used? That may have been a part of why the Myth reg was so inconsistent. We don't know.

Further, I would have liked to have seen all of the tanks filled to 4500 PSI, not 2750/2900 PSI, and check the output pressure of each reg at consistent intervals, not at varied intervals, like 2000/1950/2100 or 900/950/1000/1100/1150. Plus, I would have loved to see them do this five times with each tank, with an interval of like five minutes between each fill, to let things settle on them. They could have posted up the readings each time that they did it, and then given an average over the five times.

Edited by Lament, 21 August 2009 - 09:41 PM.


#63 MondoMor

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:55 PM

That's a good point. The reg I was comparing the Ninja to was a vintage '04 PE reg.

#64 sticktodrum

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 10:50 PM

This is part of my problem with this, as cool and good as it is, there is not enough information on the part of Bryce and CP. We don't know if they were new, used, or what. If they were used, how long had they been used? That may have been a part of why the Myth reg was so inconsistent. We don't know.

Further, I would have liked to have seen all of the tanks filled to 4500 PSI, not 2750/2900 PSI, and check the output pressure of each reg at consistent intervals, not at varied intervals, like 2000/1950/2100 or 900/950/1000/1100/1150. Plus, I would have loved to see them do this five times with each tank, with an interval of like five minutes between each fill, to let things settle on them. They could have posted up the readings each time that they did it, and then given an average over the five times.


You know that you could do these tests (and any of the Punkworks tests) yourself. Whenever there is something you don't like, or something you want to see, then the best way is to repeat the procedure yourself. That's what works about scientific testing. The idea is to try and reproduce the results.

I can't imagine it would be that difficult to gather all of the samples you want to see. Go for it.
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#65 brycelarson

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:07 PM

None of our tests is perfect. No test ever is.

We get a million suggestions on what we could have done - how we could have improved, how we fucked up etc. We certainly listen to all of those and try to improve our methods every time we do a test.

I take your suggestions as just that - fair and constructive criticism. That said, I see no reason that our test results aren't valid.

I agree with STD (your name is funny when abbreviated :) ) - if you would like to further investigate this - feel free. It's not a difficult test. None of our tests are. We always make sure to show how we set up and perform our tests for just that reason - to allow anyone who has more interest in something a chance to repeat or improve on what we've started.

Some tests are fascinating and I can't wait to do more complete or more thorough versions - some tests, well, I couldn't give two craps about the results. This one falls in the middle. My 45/45 (Dye Throttle we tested) works just fine for me. It tested on the acceptable end of things and that's just fine. All of the guns I use it with have an in-line reg, so the moderate output changes don't really cause any problems. I think the Ninja regs are impressive and I think that there is a trade-off in the design of the Myth.

I now know these things - so when my tank is out of hydro in two years I'll re-read this data and make a choice.

#66 pbjunky126

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:22 PM

with the myth reg jumping like that in the vid it might have a defective piston, like mine did. contact ga to see for sure

#67 brycelarson

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:24 PM

with the myth reg jumping like that in the vid it might have a defective piston, like mine did. contact ga to see for sure


what was the symptom of your defective piston?

#68 Lament

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 12:03 AM

This is part of my problem with this, as cool and good as it is, there is not enough information on the part of Bryce and CP. We don't know if they were new, used, or what. If they were used, how long had they been used? That may have been a part of why the Myth reg was so inconsistent. We don't know.

Further, I would have liked to have seen all of the tanks filled to 4500 PSI, not 2750/2900 PSI, and check the output pressure of each reg at consistent intervals, not at varied intervals, like 2000/1950/2100 or 900/950/1000/1100/1150. Plus, I would have loved to see them do this five times with each tank, with an interval of like five minutes between each fill, to let things settle on them. They could have posted up the readings each time that they did it, and then given an average over the five times.


You know that you could do these tests (and any of the Punkworks tests) yourself. Whenever there is something you don't like, or something you want to see, then the best way is to repeat the procedure yourself. That's what works about scientific testing. The idea is to try and reproduce the results.

I can't imagine it would be that difficult to gather all of the samples you want to see. Go for it.



Got $$$? Between getting the regs, and tanks, as well as the gauges (I have the nice cheapy $5 32 Degrees that I recently received that can help), I don't have the money to spend on getting all of these things. I can do what I can do with what I have, which is my GA 68/4500, my Pure Energy 68/4500 with Myth reg, a Pure Energy 88/4500 with Ninja reg, a Pure Energy 68/4500 with what I believe to be a PSI made reg (It has the Made in USA and Pat. Pending numbers), and a generic reged (I believe another PSI made one) 48/4500. I also have a JT 50/3000 with what looks to be another generic PSI made reg made for JT. My gauges are only so accurate, since I am using the stock gauges that come with the tanks, and a cheapy 0-1200 PSI gauge. I can say that the two Myths have a year and a year and a half of use on them, but I would call it fairly light use, and the Ninja and generic one on the 48/4500 are both brand new, never been used. Beyond that, the rest are used, but anyone's guess as to how much.

I guess that I expected a bit more. My bad, not your fault or anything of the like Bryce. You guys have a wonderful reputation for going out and figuring things out, but I guess that I expected a bit more, like giving us info like if they are used or new, size of the tanks, maybe even using the exact same tank, but with each reg, and some better consistency.

#69 Scheele

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 12:33 AM

So pretty much, this test is completely non-conclusive? I think that there are too many things that need to be accounted for. Doing a full reg vs. reg test is going to take mucha $$$ for a good sample of new regs from each manufacturer.

I am actually really interested in a comparison of PSI made PE tanks and China made PE tanks. I have a suspicion that the China tanks are not as much worse as assumed and that most issues arise from cheap burst disks.
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#70 sticktodrum

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 12:55 AM

I don't think Bryce or Gordon have that much money either. They do the best they can with what they've got, much like you. I'd say that it's unfair to expect more from anyone doing this at their own expense, than you would expect from yourself. You sound like you've got plenty, so why not give it a shot?
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#71 brycelarson

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 09:15 AM

yeah, sorry if I get snarky - it's a sore point. We have a ton of armchair testers who seem to think we owe them something. We know that our tests aren't perfect - no test is. Yes, there might be a way to do a better test - but with the resources we have I feel that this test is valid.

As to chinese regs being different than american regs - why would that be true? they're building them to the same specifications - right? they're using the same designs - right?

If anyone ever thinks they can do a better test - DO IT. I'm not saying that it's hard to do better tests than we do - because it's certainly not. I'm actually asking people to step up and get involved.

Lord Odin is a perfect example. He has different equipment and different questions - so he devises his own tests and conducts them.

The only way we can test everything that everyone wants to see is if all of the people who jump on the forums and bitch about what we did wrong get off their lazy asses and try a test. Just one. Just try one. If 10% of the people that read this board and watched our videos did a test - doesn't matter how poorly designed or executed - but if just %10 of those people did a test the general pool of paintball science knowledge would double overnight.

The answer to the age and condition of the regs - PMI, Myth, Crossfire, Dye - used, cleaned and serviced right before test. Ninja - couple of cases through it.

Tanks - 45/45 on the Dye and 68/3000 on all the rest.

#72 cockerpunk

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 09:19 AM

the reason we didn't go to 4500 is we dont have a gauge that goes up to 4500. our best gauge only goes up to 3000.

i dont consider this so much a reg vs reg brand test, i consider this a reg design and capably test. we see in the field of regs we used, about 5 different designs, and we evaluated how good each one proved to be. looking at the results i can see which functions of which regs lead to the failure and successes in each category.

now, form this test i dont think the conclusion is "dont buy a PE or ga reg" i think it is more along the lines of, "the myth regs design compromises perhaps to greatly, the trade off between size and consistency provided with longer springs."

keep in mind we did this test for the science, not for "consumer reports"

on the whole i was pleasantly surprised by most of the regulators, they all performed on the input:output test much better then i had thought they would.
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#73 Lament

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 10:07 AM

Excellent to know a few more details about the tanks and regs. That actually really helps alot. I just want to make sure that I am getting this correct then:

The first part of the test was to fill the tank to a set pressure, for ease, we will say 3000 PSI, and let it sit for five minutes while taking readings of the output pressure?

The second part of the test was to take the tanks at a high enough pressure, and take an initial output pressure reading, and then drop it down and take another reading of the output pressure?

Given that I don't have the gauges that you guys have, those are a pretty enough penny that I have yet to spend to get, I can do that relatively soon, if not this weekend. Hmmmm....

#74 brycelarson

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:22 PM

Excellent to know a few more details about the tanks and regs. That actually really helps alot. I just want to make sure that I am getting this correct then:

The first part of the test was to fill the tank to a set pressure, for ease, we will say 3000 PSI, and let it sit for five minutes while taking readings of the output pressure?

The second part of the test was to take the tanks at a high enough pressure, and take an initial output pressure reading, and then drop it down and take another reading of the output pressure?

Given that I don't have the gauges that you guys have, those are a pretty enough penny that I have yet to spend to get, I can do that relatively soon, if not this weekend. Hmmmm....


pretty close. sort of the opposite direction. we installed the gauges, filled to 1000 - checked output, filled to 2000, checked output, filled to 2950, checked output. Then we bled down to 2500, fired the gun to clear the reg and that started our 5 minute sample of creep.

all of the pressures we approximate - we were looking for the curve for each - not a specific comparison. This gives us a good idea about how linear each reg design is - which is the real question.

#75 Kitty

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:52 PM

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better :)

#76 brycelarson

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:58 PM

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better :)



coolio. It's a pretty easy test - so gathering another set of regs wouldn't be too bad.

#77 CrazyLittle

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 11:38 PM

Lament wanted me to crack the stems on those two that I sent you. Are you guys done with them yet or how much longer do you need them?

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#78 cockerpunk

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 12:16 AM

PM me your addy Crazy, we dont need these regs anymore.
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#79 Lament

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:07 AM

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better :)


Wait! But, you are almost anti-GA.....

Not fair. :angry:

Must be nice to have a bit of a change with GA now. They not only give you the time of day, but they give you the new spiffy reg too.

#80 pbjunky126

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 09:34 PM

with the myth reg jumping like that in the vid it might have a defective piston, like mine did. contact ga to see for sure


what was the symptom of your defective piston?



mine just over pressureized till the macroline burst, but it could have a dif defect that effected this.

Edited by pbjunky126, 24 August 2009 - 09:37 PM.


#81 Troy

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:59 AM

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better :)



coolio. It's a pretty easy test - so gathering another set of regs wouldn't be too bad.


Please do, and don't be shy about repeating regs that you've already tested, I would like to see if there is deviation from reg to reg. As Lament mentioned, UV Halo mentioned and I mentioned earlier more regs=good.

P.S. I'm trying not to be an armchair tester and just throwing out criticisms, but somebody has to keep you guys honest :rolleyes: .
\m/

#82 brycelarson

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:41 AM

P.S. I'm trying not to be an armchair tester and just throwing out criticisms, but somebody has to keep you guys honest :rolleyes: .


we know - there are more personal attacks from the guys we don't appreciate. Actual constructive criticism is always welcome.

#83 BarelyBen

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:53 AM

this vid is terribly bias these guys are sponsored by ninja

Look here it says so:
http://www.youtube.c...kworkspaintball

Do they pay you to make vids like this?

Clubs= Non, Im a Loser

#84 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:57 AM

this vid is terribly bias these guys are sponsored by ninja

Look here it says so:
http://www.youtube.c...kworkspaintball

Do they pay you to make vids like this?


you do know that is us right?

after a conversation with Dan from GA we are getting some brand spanking' new GA regs to test. Dan assures us the reg we had was defective.

both a new myth and a G2 myth.

ninja gave us a reg to test, which we later gave away as a prize in the lanning test, if you watch that video. now GA is doing the same thing. as per out own rules, we cannot accept products to test and then profit from that testing. if you take a look at the stickies, you would see that. we also specifically avoid the word "sponsored" becuase the only people who sponsor us is mike, willie and the techpb crew. companies do not sponsor us.

Edited by cockerpunk, 27 August 2009 - 08:01 AM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#85 brycelarson

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:50 AM

yup, they're embarrassed by the vid - but like CockerPunk said, they think it was a defective reg and a new one is on the way.

#86 Lament

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 09:13 AM

CP, I think that BarelyBen is saying that you guys are sponsored by Ninja, since your Youtube page says that. But, it also says that you are sponsored by Guerrilla Air. Eh, not a big deal to me, since you are sponsored by them, per your Youtube page, and yet I have seen you lambast GA many times, even saying that their quality control is crap, as well as the regs themselves are garbage. Personally, I think that you have a bias against them, but no biggie to me anymore.

I am hoping today to do some similar type of testing, without the more expensive large faced, liquid filled gauges that you guys have.

#87 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 09:17 AM

CP, I think that BarelyBen is saying that you guys are sponsored by Ninja, since your Youtube page says that. But, it also says that you are sponsored by Guerrilla Air. Eh, not a big deal to me, since you are sponsored by them, per your Youtube page, and yet I have seen you lambast GA many times, even saying that their quality control is crap, as well as the regs themselves are garbage. Personally, I think that you have a bias against them, but no biggie to me anymore.

I am hoping today to do some similar type of testing, without the more expensive large faced, liquid filled gauges that you guys have.


only reporting the data. the myth reg we tested was terrible, and there isn't really any debate there. that reg did terrible.

please note, you youtube page says "supported by" not "sponsored by"

no one sponsors punkworks besides techpb. if manufactures send us equipment to test, they go on that list. if they want us to test something against some other brand, then we are forced to give away the donated product to avoid bias or conflict of interest.

Edited by cockerpunk, 27 August 2009 - 09:19 AM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#88 brycelarson

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 09:55 AM

yup, it's a fine line - but we're supported by companies. We have no agreements and if we're going to do a head to head test (like this reg test) then we either buy the items to test - or we give away / return any donated items.

We want to remain impartial. You've seen the video of that Myth reg - right? Now, the guys at Gorilla tell me that we had a bum reg - so we're going to re-test that reg. All of the other regs in the test were either purchased by us or donated and returned.

We don't have any free stuff from ninja. Many companies have helped us out - and we want to thank them for that - which is why we say that we're supported by these companies.

#89 sruli1974

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:40 AM

I am a little confused....not to criticize or anything, but you are running tests on regs, some of them brand spanking new from the factory and others that are sent to you after who knows how much wear and tear? Doesn't seem like a fair comparison or test parameters to me. In order to do a comparison test you would need all the components to be starting at the same level (brand new would make sense since it is hard to match up exactly wear and tear regs).

#90 Lament

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:48 AM

My apologies guys, you are correct, supported by. I admit in my haste to misreading the about me stuff.

#91 brycelarson

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:50 AM

My apologies guys, you are correct, supported by. I admit in my haste to misreading the about me stuff.


no, it's a fine line - and we're always looking for a way to make the distinction more clear. what wording would you suggest?

#92 Spitlebug

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:50 AM

I am a little confused....not to criticize or anything, but you are running tests on regs, some of them brand spanking new from the factory and others that are sent to you after who knows how much wear and tear? Doesn't seem like a fair comparison or test parameters to me. In order to do a comparison test you would need all the components to be starting at the same level (brand new would make sense since it is hard to match up exactly wear and tear regs).


That's completely fair within the bounds of financial concerns and also a cross section of what the average player will use. The market for used paintball gear (particularly tanks) is huge. If you note that all tanks were stripped down and cleaned/relubed before testing.

You guys should have a supported by "That Crazy Canadian Guy...." on there.

P.S. I just bought a Tshirt.

So tempted to suspend Kitty just so I can say I have....
Okay, fuck it....I just banned Kitty, that's going in the sig.

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#93 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:56 AM

I am a little confused....not to criticize or anything, but you are running tests on regs, some of them brand spanking new from the factory and others that are sent to you after who knows how much wear and tear? Doesn't seem like a fair comparison or test parameters to me. In order to do a comparison test you would need all the components to be starting at the same level (brand new would make sense since it is hard to match up exactly wear and tear regs).


i used the ninja tank for 2 days of play before we tested it. so it was not brand new, it was used somewhat.

ill agree that is an issue, however, its just out of our control. the only way this could work is to ask each manufacturer to send a us a reg they think will represent them best. be that "worn in" or brand new.

we did the best we could. my thoughts are that a clean reg is always gonna be better then a "worn in" but dirty reg.

i put "worn in" in quotes becuase there really is no definition for that word.

I am a little confused....not to criticize or anything, but you are running tests on regs, some of them brand spanking new from the factory and others that are sent to you after who knows how much wear and tear? Doesn't seem like a fair comparison or test parameters to me. In order to do a comparison test you would need all the components to be starting at the same level (brand new would make sense since it is hard to match up exactly wear and tear regs).


That's completely fair within the bounds of financial concerns and also a cross section of what the average player will use. The market for used paintball gear (particularly tanks) is huge. If you note that all tanks were stripped down and cleaned/relubed before testing.

You guys should have a supported by "That Crazy Canadian Guy...." on there.

P.S. I just bought a Tshirt.


alright .. just for you ..

Edited by cockerpunk, 27 August 2009 - 10:56 AM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#94 Lament

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:57 AM

My apologies guys, you are correct, supported by. I admit in my haste to misreading the about me stuff.


no, it's a fine line - and we're always looking for a way to make the distinction more clear. what wording would you suggest?


Why put anything about your being supported at all? You have said many times that you are only actually sponsored by Tech PB, so leave it at that. You can always mention, in your video and in the area below the video, who supported the test and such that you are doing, and how so. It can be a bit confusing, and my mistake, along with the other persons, are logical.

I am a little confused....not to criticize or anything, but you are running tests on regs, some of them brand spanking new from the factory and others that are sent to you after who knows how much wear and tear? Doesn't seem like a fair comparison or test parameters to me. In order to do a comparison test you would need all the components to be starting at the same level (brand new would make sense since it is hard to match up exactly wear and tear regs).


That's completely fair within the bounds of financial concerns and also a cross section of what the average player will use. The market for used paintball gear (particularly tanks) is huge. If you note that all tanks were stripped down and cleaned/relubed before testing.

You guys should have a supported by "That Crazy Canadian Guy...." on there.

P.S. I just bought a Tshirt.


Actually, if you look back on the second page, you will notice that the Ninja was not stripped down or anything. It had a couple of cases through it (Relatively speaking).

#95 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:58 AM

no, i cleaned the ninja too.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#96 sruli1974

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:07 AM

You make some good points but in response: yes, if you want to do fair testing you need to contact every manufacturer for a new sample. As a GA rep I can tell you that we were not contacted at all. So it didn't even give us a fair chance to get you a new reg before you did your test.

Any other way would be like comparing a 1990 Cadillac to a 2009 Toyota Corolla but claiming: I did drive the Corolla around the block a few times before my comparison analysis...

And if for some reason the manufacturers don't want to send you a sample for testing, then a disclaimer should be made on any video and test data posted about the conditions of the regs (new/old/used etc.). The way it is set up now that is certainly not the impression you are giving.

I just want to clarify that I am not accusing you of being biased, I am just saying that it appears in your haste to do these tests and get these videos out, some important elements and factors were left out. I guess we will see if any disclaimers or corrections are made….

#97 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:13 AM

You make some good points but in response: yes, if you want to do fair testing you need to contact every manufacturer for a new sample. As a GA rep I can tell you that we were not contacted at all. So it didn't even give us a fair chance to get you a new reg before you did your test.

Any other way would be like comparing a 1990 Cadillac to a 2009 Toyota Corolla but claiming: I did drive the Corolla around the block a few times before my comparison analysis...

And if for some reason the manufacturers don't want to send you a sample for testing, then a disclaimer should be made on any video and test data posted about the conditions of the regs (new/old/used etc.). The way it is set up now that is certainly not the impression you are giving.

I just want to clarify that I am not accusing you of being biased, I am just saying that it appears in your haste to do these tests and get these videos out, some important elements and factors were left out. I guess we will see if any disclaimers or corrections are made….


good suggestions. we will take them into account when we can.

as great as connections and interactions with the industry are, they also bring with it claims of bias and all sorts of ass hattery. as such, i try not to get anything we test from the industry. if we can buy it or barrow it, that is infinitely better then dealing with getting rid of it without profiting. my goal would to not have to get anything from the industry directly, but from other consumers.

we got the ninja reg at LL, i used it on my tank for a while, cleaned them all, then we gave it away for the laning test rewards. that is the limit of our "sponsorship" with ninja. i think its a fair test for sure. the new GA reg i am excited to test.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#98 Slider993

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:20 AM

Um I don't really understand this but I'm taking it that the output pressure is supposed to go lower right? Or is it supposed to go higher?

Thanks
Slider

PS: I've only been playing paintball for 6 months. This is one of the things I'm still trying to get a grasp on.

Edited by Slider993, 27 August 2009 - 11:23 AM.

Thanks BORG for all you have given to the paintball community. RIP. You will be missed.

#99 Tcheno

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:34 AM

I wonder what the performance/result of these regs (presets) against popular inline regs would be?
Like, since you are regulating pressure on 2 different stages/points (preset + inline reg) what would be the final results (on gun performance)? And do they have impact in terms of a spool vs poppet?

Also, can't wait to see the new GA results :D

Edited by Tcheno, 27 August 2009 - 11:42 AM.


#100 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:46 AM

if anyone here has a PBN account in good standing, i would ask that someone either quote, or summarize the statements me and bryce have made about "sponsorship" and "support"

im not asking you to go to bat for us, but im tired of looking at it.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."





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