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Laning test - ROF


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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:43 AM



#2 PacosTacos88

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:45 AM

First!

I haz cookies now?

:P


Anytime cockerpunk gets shot at is a good time. *waits for CP's ninja-like skills*

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#3 Homelessballer

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:05 PM

second :(

#4 Spitlebug

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 02:47 PM

Damn, I would have loved to do this test with you guys.

So tempted to suspend Kitty just so I can say I have....
Okay, fuck it....I just banned Kitty, that's going in the sig.

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#5 sticktodrum

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 02:54 PM

So I guess you guys did get my paint. :tup: Glad I could help with one of my favorite tests. This was very informative, and entertaining... extremely entertaining.
Gerber, Surefire, TOPS, and Cold Steel all suck the big one. Buy quality products, not junk. :-)

#6 devaldoog

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 03:21 PM

very good test and the high speed hits were awsome

#7 CdnNinja

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 03:33 PM

Loved the video guys. Awesome work.

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#8 brycelarson

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:31 PM

So I guess you guys did get my paint. :tup: Glad I could help with one of my favorite tests. This was very informative, and entertaining... extremely entertaining.



yeah, thanks man. I never knew what your forum name was - and as we showed in the video - Gordon couldn't remember either. Thanks a ton.

#9 cockerpunk

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:32 PM

it was a while back, and i had cleared out my PM box.

sorry dude, well get it in there as an annotation.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#10 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:33 PM

Simply Awesome! Love it!
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#11 sticktodrum

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:50 AM

No worries. I'm just glad you got it, and put it to good use. I was curious as to how it shot.

That last gunman really had it out for Gordon. Whoa.
Gerber, Surefire, TOPS, and Cold Steel all suck the big one. Buy quality products, not junk. :-)

#12 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:58 AM

No worries. I'm just glad you got it, and put it to good use. I was curious as to how it shot.

That last gunman really had it out for Gordon. Whoa.


yeah, when he was shooting he was getting a little snarky late in the test. She felt that she owed him a little taste.

#13 sticktodrum

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:12 AM

Feisty! Chicks dig the science nerds ya know.
Gerber, Surefire, TOPS, and Cold Steel all suck the big one. Buy quality products, not junk. :-)

#14 Ced

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:59 AM

I conclude: If you run fast as fuck with the enemy not knowing you are about to, you can run through almost every legal lane.
Thanks.

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#15 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:55 AM

I conclude: If you run fast as fuck with the enemy not knowing you are about to, you can run through almost every legal lane.
Thanks.


yup, surprised the hell out of me - but it certainly seemed that way.

#16 Schven79

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:00 AM

My favorite vid so far, second had to be the myth reg output, haha! :)



#17 Snipez4664

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:13 AM

I conclude: If you run fast as fuck with the enemy not knowing you are about to, you can run through almost every legal lane.
Thanks.


yup, surprised the hell out of me - but it certainly seemed that way.


It's really awesome to see evidence of this - people have been trying to do the math on this correctly for literally years, and this was a simple, relatively conclusive test with proper equipment and recording. Kudos.

I'm not that surprised by the results, though I expected 15bps to be slightly more daunting than the probability suggests it is. I think the hit frequency would rise slightly with higher sample size, off the cuff. The only thing, in retrospect, I wish there was was a way to tell how fast a given runner was moving @ the lane (certainly possible with a background yardstick or something + the highspeed...just to see if the speed correlates heavily with the missing or if it is more timing/luck.
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#18 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:23 AM

I'm not that surprised by the results, though I expected 15bps to be slightly more daunting than the probability suggests it is. I think the hit frequency would rise slightly with higher sample size, off the cuff. The only thing, in retrospect, I wish there was was a way to tell how fast a given runner was moving @ the lane (certainly possible with a background yardstick or something + the highspeed...just to see if the speed correlates heavily with the missing or if it is more timing/luck.


I've got to tell you - the first run through 15 WAS very intimidating. It sounds like it's going to cut you in half.

We kept using the term "phasing" for hit probability. It's not exactly right - but gives the right impression of what seemed to happen. The number of total hits did go up with ROF - but the chance of being hit didn't necessarily. We had more instances of multiple hits at 15 bps - but 10 was the most likely to put at least one ball on a runner - indicating that it really is as much about luck as anything.

Something to note in the HS footage - which is even with good paint and a very consistent shooting gun shooting in an underbored situation - the balls do tend to stack up. The variations in speed really bunch the balls together. It's not visible from the shooter's viewpoint - since it looks like a stream from that POV. Between the "stacking" and the reality that at 100' the cone of paint has spread out to 3' or wider - THAT's where the magic happens. I might dig through the footage and try to find a good example, but there are times where you can obviously see two balls - one hook just to the front side of a runner - and the next one in line just to the back side of a runner. they make it through clean - but both balls were timed to hit - if they were on-line. On the other side there are a few clips in that footage showing multiple hits. I think that with perfect trajectory the 15 bps might be impossible to run through - but you add velocity fluctuation and the terrible ballistics of a paintball - and bingo! you make it through.

here's the data if people want to crunch it:

Chris - 15 bps 0,0 - 12 bps 0,2 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,1
Tim Underbakke - 15 bps 2,0 - 12 bps 1,1 - 10 bps 2,1 - 8 bps 0,1
Tim "AKA" - 15 bps 2,0 - 12 bps 1,2 - 10 bps 1,0 - 8 bps 1,0
Jim "MondoMor" - 15 bps 1,1 - 12 bps 0,0 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 1,0
Bryce - 15 bps 1,1 - 12 bps 0,1 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,0
Danielle - 15 bps 0,2 - 12 bps 1,0 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,0
Jesse - 15 bps 2,3 - 12 bps 2,1 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,0

extra 15 bps runs by Bryce and Gordon

Gordon: 1,0,1,1,1,0,4 (with gun following me on last 2)
Bryce:0,1,1,1

#19 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:30 AM

here's a bit of number crunching:

http://spreadsheets....amp;output=html

#20 Snipez4664

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:18 PM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...
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#21 brycelarson

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:25 PM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


maybe. It would on occasion result in more hits or fewer hits - hence our term phasing. it all depends on where in the phase of the stream you happen to end up.

#22 D.K.

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 03:37 PM

Test is invalid. If I wear my ninja headband and run threw it, i wont get hit.

#23 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:41 PM

I'm not that surprised by the results, though I expected 15bps to be slightly more daunting than the probability suggests it is. I think the hit frequency would rise slightly with higher sample size, off the cuff. The only thing, in retrospect, I wish there was was a way to tell how fast a given runner was moving @ the lane (certainly possible with a background yardstick or something + the highspeed...just to see if the speed correlates heavily with the missing or if it is more timing/luck.


I've got to tell you - the first run through 15 WAS very intimidating. It sounds like it's going to cut you in half.

We kept using the term "phasing" for hit probability. It's not exactly right - but gives the right impression of what seemed to happen. The number of total hits did go up with ROF - but the chance of being hit didn't necessarily. We had more instances of multiple hits at 15 bps - but 10 was the most likely to put at least one ball on a runner - indicating that it really is as much about luck as anything.

Something to note in the HS footage - which is even with good paint and a very consistent shooting gun shooting in an underbored situation - the balls do tend to stack up. The variations in speed really bunch the balls together. It's not visible from the shooter's viewpoint - since it looks like a stream from that POV. Between the "stacking" and the reality that at 100' the cone of paint has spread out to 3' or wider - THAT's where the magic happens. I might dig through the footage and try to find a good example, but there are times where you can obviously see two balls - one hook just to the front side of a runner - and the next one in line just to the back side of a runner. they make it through clean - but both balls were timed to hit - if they were on-line. On the other side there are a few clips in that footage showing multiple hits. I think that with perfect trajectory the 15 bps might be impossible to run through - but you add velocity fluctuation and the terrible ballistics of a paintball - and bingo! you make it through.

here's the data if people want to crunch it:

Chris - 15 bps 0,0 - 12 bps 0,2 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,1
Tim Underbakke - 15 bps 2,0 - 12 bps 1,1 - 10 bps 2,1 - 8 bps 0,1
Tim "AKA" - 15 bps 2,0 - 12 bps 1,2 - 10 bps 1,0 - 8 bps 1,0
Jim "MondoMor" - 15 bps 1,1 - 12 bps 0,0 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 1,0
Bryce - 15 bps 1,1 - 12 bps 0,1 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,0
Danielle - 15 bps 0,2 - 12 bps 1,0 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,0
Jesse - 15 bps 2,3 - 12 bps 2,1 - 10 bps 1,1 - 8 bps 0,0

extra 15 bps runs by Bryce and Gordon

Gordon: 1,0,1,1,1,0,4 (with gun following me on last 2)
Bryce:0,1,1,1


the video of jessie and danelle actually illustrates the point pretty well.

its a stream of 15 BPS, and danelle actually gets hit twice going though it. then jessie comes though and you can distinctly see one ball pass directly in front of his waste, then one directly behind his butt.

so your shooting basically a 2 foot diameter ciricle, so if you can get the phase right, and the rounds are relatively scattered, then you can make it though with reasonable probability.

i know i was shocked the first time i made it though the 15 BPS stream. it feels like your about to get sawed in half, but you can make it.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#24 CRU_Paintball

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 07:38 AM

Test is invalid. If I wear my ninja headband and run threw it, i wont get hit.


Maybe if you run THROUGH if. If not... you fail sir...

#25 Ced

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:01 AM

The most important info I take from this test is:

If you run liek a mad man through a gap shorter/smaller than 15 to 25 feet, and your run is unexpected, noone will hit you. This is a very important message right there - something that I always felt, which is why I got myself in seemingly dangerous situations with confidence in the past - you can make it and you have not a slim but a very likely chance to come through unharmed. This is very useful and should be kept in mind the next time you are "surpressed" on the field. A quick dash is very likely to be successful - even more so at lower ROFs, like 13 or even 10.

I like it!

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#26 brycelarson

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:33 AM

The most important info I take from this test is:

If you run liek a mad man through a gap shorter/smaller than 15 to 25 feet, and your run is unexpected, noone will hit you. This is a very important message right there - something that I always felt, which is why I got myself in seemingly dangerous situations with confidence in the past - you can make it and you have not a slim but a very likely chance to come through unharmed. This is very useful and should be kept in mind the next time you are "surpressed" on the field. A quick dash is very likely to be successful - even more so at lower ROFs, like 13 or even 10.

I like it!


yup, and in this case - even if they see you and know exactly where you're going to be - you still have a decent chance of making it.

#27 sticktodrum

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:13 AM

Unfortunately, the fokls at my local indoor field mostly play uncapped. So, my chances are slim.

Edited by sticktodrum, 20 August 2009 - 10:13 AM.

Gerber, Surefire, TOPS, and Cold Steel all suck the big one. Buy quality products, not junk. :-)

#28 brycelarson

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:15 AM

Unfortunately, the fokls at my local indoor field mostly play uncapped. So, my chances are slim.


maybe. Early in the test the Emag/Phrophecy was hiccuping - it was shootign 15 bps - but erratically. almost everyone was making it through - again, it's all about timing. 20 bps with .3 second gaps between chunks of balls might be easier to get through - and most people are really inconsistent on semi.

#29 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:17 PM

that was a great video!!!!

#30 brycelarson

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:49 PM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


That might make sense at a Higher rate of fire the gun has to work harder to get the balls out meaning the regulator is working faster and the increased pace of the work might lead to slightly higher fluxuations in velocity as the ROF increases. maybe if you guys wanted to you could do a part two of this test where you shoot over a chrono and have a guage that shows the operating pressure of the HPR


the trick to that would be recording and lining up the FPS and reg pressure. It would be cool - but optimally I would want to get video and a transducer - so that we could check the chrono reading vs the graph of the pressure.

#31 cockerpunk

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:13 PM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


That might make sense at a Higher rate of fire the gun has to work harder to get the balls out meaning the regulator is working faster and the increased pace of the work might lead to slightly higher fluxuations in velocity as the ROF increases. maybe if you guys wanted to you could do a part two of this test where you shoot over a chrono and have a guage that shows the operating pressure of the HPR


the xvalve actually gets more consistent the faster you shoot it.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#32 Leafy

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:36 PM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


That might make sense at a Higher rate of fire the gun has to work harder to get the balls out meaning the regulator is working faster and the increased pace of the work might lead to slightly higher fluxuations in velocity as the ROF increases. maybe if you guys wanted to you could do a part two of this test where you shoot over a chrono and have a guage that shows the operating pressure of the HPR


the xvalve actually gets more consistent the faster you shoot it.


and shoots hotter too.
but cp kind of runs like a little girl

Edited by Leafy, 31 August 2009 - 08:36 PM.


#33 Snipez4664

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:10 AM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


That might make sense at a Higher rate of fire the gun has to work harder to get the balls out meaning the regulator is working faster and the increased pace of the work might lead to slightly higher fluxuations in velocity as the ROF increases. maybe if you guys wanted to you could do a part two of this test where you shoot over a chrono and have a guage that shows the operating pressure of the HPR


the xvalve actually gets more consistent the faster you shoot it.


?

I'd never heard this - the traces show it has a clear tendency to shoot up if anything.

Edited by Snipez4664, 01 September 2009 - 01:10 AM.

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#34 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 07:07 AM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


That might make sense at a Higher rate of fire the gun has to work harder to get the balls out meaning the regulator is working faster and the increased pace of the work might lead to slightly higher fluxuations in velocity as the ROF increases. maybe if you guys wanted to you could do a part two of this test where you shoot over a chrono and have a guage that shows the operating pressure of the HPR


the xvalve actually gets more consistent the faster you shoot it.


?

I'd never heard this - the traces show it has a clear tendency to shoot up if anything.


yeah, up, but more consistent.

the up id due to heating effects, and the reg seat seals before the heating effects ware off, which lowers the pressure in the dump.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#35 brycelarson

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:07 AM

The increase is due to heating effects. The reg seat seals before the heating effects wear off which lowers the pressure in the dump.


there you go - fixed for you.

#36 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:18 AM

wow, before my morning can of pop, i am just dumb.

good thing i didn't start writing this report until 15 minutes ago. . .
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#37 Leafy

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:21 AM

wow, before my morning can of pop, i am just dumb.

good thing i didn't start writing this report until 15 minutes ago. . .


cp you need one of these,
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#38 Snipez4664

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:30 AM

So ignoring the heating error - Why would that be more consistent?
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#39 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:33 AM

So ignoring the heating error - Why would that be more consistent?


if you catch the curve closer to the overshoot, then you will have more predictable pressure.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#40 Deadpool

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:35 AM

Nice vid guys. This has to be number 1 on my list. That slomo cam is a hell of a thing. You can even see the belly fat jiggle and wiggle...lol

By the way what was the whole goodsome beverage you guys were drinking? wink wink...



#41 acidblasta

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 12:31 PM

I wonder if there is velocity consistency @ ROF factor that makes a difference in the likelihood of hitting someone...


That might make sense at a Higher rate of fire the gun has to work harder to get the balls out meaning the regulator is working faster and the increased pace of the work might lead to slightly higher fluxuations in velocity as the ROF increases. maybe if you guys wanted to you could do a part two of this test where you shoot over a chrono and have a guage that shows the operating pressure of the HPR


the trick to that would be recording and lining up the FPS and reg pressure. It would be cool - but optimally I would want to get video and a transducer - so that we could check the chrono reading vs the graph of the pressure.


yeah that would work. It seems to me that the inconsistency in the streams lays with the HPR. I wonder if the X valve would have a decreased phase effect over the traditional HPR due to it's better consistancy or would the fact that it shoot hotter still cause your stream to phase.
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#42 JoeySaures

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 03:02 PM

at 3:46 you see a bounce it looks so cool

#43 stagga24

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 04:10 PM

guys did awesome

ups for sticktodrum for the music and the increasing bryce and gordons ability to test!

#44 poorballer1

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:46 PM

Why does everyone have sock hats on? its like im at the 1995 world cup
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#45 FlyingFooBalls

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:11 PM

gotta love a good neck hit
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#46 NorthForkPB

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:40 PM

great vid so most hits were at 15 bps.
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#47 dspencer5595

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 12:55 AM

that was the only way to get a real conclustion . i dont care how much math these other people did because paintballs arnt like bullets so you cant really do the math when there is such a unknown with the projectile .




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