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so what actually cuases barrel breaks?


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#51 oerllikon

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:10 PM

I suppose you guys dont have a high speed camera to catch this stuff going on? Is this a glass, or aluminum barrel?
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#52 darkgizmo18

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:31 PM

We should get all of our ideas together and send it into the show Time Warp on discovery channel. For those you who don't know, Time Warp is a show where these two guys go around with there real fancy high speed cameras filming stuff. It would be really sweet to get paintball on TV with ball breaks and all the other stuff.

#53 Jack Wood

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:11 AM

So, yesterday was very interesting. But, as usual, created a whole host more questions than answers.

We had the camera for a specific job, so the "interesting" stuff had to wait until the end of the day as we were running out of time.

The clear barrel worked really well. We have a nice shot of the ball accelerating down the tube over 8-9 inches. The initial part where the ball leaves the face of the bolt is covered by the barrel threads/body, unfortunately, but we got a nice sequence of 120-ish images as the frame rate was up at 50,000 frames per second, and shutter speed was around 1/350,000th of a second. Shame that that was by far the most boring shot of all :)

Gordon, we did see some "barrel breaks" right at the end of the day with some horrible mis-shapen paint that was anything other than round. These breaks didn't even start to leave residue in the barrel until 5-6 inches down. In the breech and first 4 inches there was not a single spec of paint or sign of failure. Unfortunately we didn't capture these breaks on the camera as we were focusing on the breech when they occured. We have the paint, and the barrel, so next time we will capture these "barrel breaks" no problem.

Besides that, I think we pretty much captured every variation of contributing factor that can lead to what people loosly term barrel and breech (chop) breaks. Care to list them, anyone?

Gordon, I don't understand what you were saying with Simons video. How can you tell the ball wasn't concentric to the bore as it was pushed forward by the bolt? How can you see that from that angle? LBB, or Last Ball Bounce is a well known condition with tumbling balls, that is why Eclipse guns have that off-set feed in order to help reduce it. Me and Ryan have discussed this before. It has been known about for years, but it seems very few people/companies have done anything to try and eliminate or reduce it......

I have over 30Gb of footage to go through now, and as soon as I have something interesting that I can show, I'll arrange getting it uploaded somewhere.

Finally, the camera will be coming back, for a whole week, some time in December. Gordon, do you want to start a thread or poll of what people might like to see if we have the time to shoot it? Might as well make the most of it. Planet will be picking up the bill ;)
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#54 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:22 AM

interesting.

the mid barrel breaks interest me for sure. however, if your assessment of it is simply terribly out of round paint, that would make sense that we did not get them in our test, because our paint was very good.
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#55 Jack Wood

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:29 AM

interesting.

the mid barrel breaks interest me for sure. however, if your assessment of it is simply terribly out of round paint, that would make sense that we did not get them in our test, because our paint was very good.


You could take a ball, blow it through the barrel 5-6 times, very easily. Load it a 7th time and it would be stuck solid within 1/2" It was just not very spherical.

What was interesting to me was that even the most fragile paint we had, if it loaded correctly, NEVER broke in the barrel!! Not one.

The paint that broke half way down the barrel did not fail ONCE during loading, using an array of loaders and speeds. Out of all paints we tested, only this one paint failed (repeatedly) in the barrel. All the other only failed in loading, and gave us the common break patterns we have come to recognise.
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#56 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:47 AM

You could take a ball, blow it through the barrel 5-6 times, very easily. Load it a 7th time and it would be stuck solid within 1/2" It was just not very spherical.

What was interesting to me was that even the most fragile paint we had, if it loaded correctly, NEVER broke in the barrel!! Not one.

The paint that broke half way down the barrel did not fail ONCE during loading, using an array of loaders and speeds. Out of all paints we tested, only this one paint failed (repeatedly) in the barrel. All the other only failed in loading, and gave us the common break patterns we have come to recognise.


you should post some screenshots when you get them all rendered. i know it takes time, but we dont want to get to far ahead of ourselves.

yes, that middle bit confirms where we are going here, that the loading system or the paintballs themselves seem to have the largest effects in terms of barrel breaks.

the question is, how do we configure or design the loading system to prevent breaks. and, is there a way to find or inspect our paint before playing to find a proper level of brittleness and roundness for our guns to fire.
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#57 Jack Wood

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:10 AM

you should post some screenshots when you get them all rendered. i know it takes time, but we dont want to get to far ahead of ourselves.

yes, that middle bit confirms where we are going here, that the loading system or the paintballs themselves seem to have the largest effects in terms of barrel breaks.

the question is, how do we configure or design the loading system to prevent breaks. and, is there a way to find or inspect our paint before playing to find a proper level of brittleness and roundness for our guns to fire.


The system is pretty trick. It outputs every image as a tif file. So screen shots are easy to pull out. Find one you like, pull it out, host it.

Obviously it makes each image massive, so it is better to compress them to a jpeg, or something similar.

Footage is best viewed on the software that the camera uses (it is free software) so you can frame advance, play at any frame rate you like, backwards forwards, etc. it's simple to use, and it has post production effects you can use to lighten areas, or zoom on an area.


Mmm, not just the loading system. The bolt "action" also has a say in what happens. When I refer to loading, I mean getting the ball into the breech, and then getting it to point of fire. Maybe you need to create some terminology that describes the different transitional periods that we are investigating. If someone wants to break down the cycle and suggest some terms for each phase, it would be a good starting point. I think it is worth clarifying the differnt stages early on so we can all be on the same page as the discussion continues. This is probably going to be harder than actually discovering what goes on in a paintball gun :)
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#58 Snipez4664

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:34 AM

For those that may have missed it in Jack's comment, I'm Ryan.

Pretty simple matter to isolate the variables now. We know from Simon that tuning a loader's force to be just right decreases ball breaks - this is the reason for the magna clutch. While that helps, I like Deftek better since it essentially rounds off (or tries) the impact into the breech - It's not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop at the end. I actually have "my gun" sketched out with a sort of shock absorbing "Tee" for this reason, although to be honest I find Jack's solution more elegant. Also keep in mind the situation that is quite proven to happen where the ball gets thrown down the feedneck without a big stack behind it - it can have a much higher impact velocity than gravity or gravity + tension would dictate in the stack.

I loves me some good geometry. (an aside is that I like the rotor because it puts tension on many less balls than the HALO series - F=MA...it can accelerate a ball into the breech with less force on the shell.

We also know that pillow bolts decrease breaks, greatly in some cases, depending on how horribly you've botched your stock bolt design and the amount of rollback, response curve of your ram system etc.

We also know that a big diameter bolt >.690, we'll say, clips the stack. Bolts that are .682 don't already. The huge fillet on the tip of the Nox shocker bolt made me smile for this reason. Jack fixed this with the cure design - prior to it I was critical of the ego bolt diameter.

I also think that the breech to barrel interface clips balls - I'm looking at getting a barrel made with a strong taper from the breech section in the first 3/4" or so to avoid this, along with some other stuff I think will be good...You'll probably figure out that half in the accuracy test.

Detents necessarily clip balls. As long as they're far enough back in the breech they don't impact the ball much though. IMPACT is what we're looking for - hard surfaces SMACKING the ball. Reloading too forcefully could even break balls - someone line my loader with dynamat!
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#59 Jack Wood

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 12:45 PM

Speeking of stacks, we have seen issues with higher force loads and shorter stacks. Fewer balls in the stack do not absorb the impacts of being "nudged" up the feed as the bolt comes forward.

And Ryan, after yesterday, you would have a hard job convincing me that .682 bolt never clips the stack ;) Loader and paint have more of an influence on that, again.
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#60 Snipez4664

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 01:31 PM

Speeking of stacks, we have seen issues with higher force loads and shorter stacks. Fewer balls in the stack do not absorb the impacts of being "nudged" up the feed as the bolt comes forward.

And Ryan, after yesterday, you would have a hard job convincing me that .682 bolt never clips the stack. Loader and paint have more of an influence on that, again.



Interesting - I assume the stack was forced into a staggered condition - it doesnt take much to pick up the extra .007". If you'll allow me to rephrase, sir, a proper .682 diameter bolt shouldn't clip the stack. I'd be devastatingly interested in seeing what exactly happened. I am assuming that smaller paint and higher tension increases the tendency to stagger.

To TechPB - you can test for stack clippage by taking the loader off and firing the gun with 2 balls in the feedneck. Spyders have such bad rollaround in the breech that it will pop the second ball clear out, even without gas. That's something like a .701" breech.
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#61 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 01:44 PM

And Ryan, after yesterday, you would have a hard job convincing me that .682 bolt never clips the stack ;) Loader and paint have more of an influence on that, again.


ha!

i love hearing you say something like that jack, nice work. not that i like the data, but i like that you are assigning comparative levels of influence of each of the factors. but inregards to bolt shape, im willing to bet money that a nice filleted edge there is probably more helpful then a small diameter

ever since we started underboring i have been thinking of a taper in the barrel. like ryan is saying. if you can make one ryan, i would love to try one out.
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#62 Snipez4664

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 01:56 PM

ha!

i love hearing you say something like that jack, nice work. not that i like the data, but i like that you are assigning comparative levels of influence of each of the factors. but inregards to bolt shape, im willing to bet money that a nice filleted edge there is probably more helpful then a small diameter

ever since we started underboring i have been thinking of a taper in the barrel. like ryan is saying. if you can make one ryan, i would love to try one out.


Proper breech indexing is more imporant than either in my experience.

I'll see what I can do.
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#63 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:51 PM

Interesting - I assume the stack was forced into a staggered condition - it doesnt take much to pick up the extra .007". If you'll allow me to rephrase, sir, a proper .682 diameter bolt shouldn't clip the stack. I'd be devastatingly interested in seeing what exactly happened. I am assuming that smaller paint and higher tension increases the tendency to stagger.

To TechPB - you can test for stack clippage by taking the loader off and firing the gun with 2 balls in the feedneck. Spyders have such bad rollaround in the breech that it will pop the second ball clear out, even without gas. That's something like a .701" breech.


I suppose we need to define "clip" don't we? Clip = bolt contacts the 2nd ball? Or clip = breaking/cracking of 2nd ball?

In all the tests, the 2nd ball was always contacted by the head of the bolt, even when the tension was low, and the ball an "average" size. The geometetry of the head plays a part in what the contact looks like. The geometry can allow the 2nd ball to "sag" into the void between the back of the 1st ball and bolt head, so the bolt needs to push it back up just to get it to its original "waiting" position, and then up again to get it clear of the bolt. Also, depending on the "aggressivness" of the leading edge of the bolt will often determin what happens to the 2nd ball. The more fragile the paint, the shorter the stack, and the more aggressive the compression of the stack (from the loader) all have a bearing on whether the "clipping" of the ball will lead to a failure of the second ball.

And, very few bolt/breeches have perfect ball-position geometry. Very few. And as you point out, load and ball size will always play a role in whether that stack stays aligned.
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#64 brycelarson

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:03 PM

I suppose we need to define "clip" don't we? Clip = bolt contacts the 2nd ball? Or clip = breaking/cracking of 2nd ball?


how about something like clip = contacts while nick = cracks or otherwise damages 2nd ball?

#65 Jack Wood

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:25 AM

how about something like clip = contacts while nick = cracks or otherwise damages 2nd ball?


Sounds good to me.

Clip = During the firing of a breech-chambered ball, the head of the bolt makes contact with the second ball in the stack.
Nick = During the firing of a breech-chambered ball, the head of the bolt makes contact with and damages the second ball in the stack.

Do we have a Glossery section? Maybe now is a good time to start working on a definative Glossery. This is one of my biggest bug-bears with the sport. No consistent terminology.
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#66 brycelarson

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:55 AM

Sounds good to me.

Clip = During the firing of a breech-chambered ball, the head of the bolt makes contact with the second ball in the stack.
Nick = During the firing of a breech-chambered ball, the head of the bolt makes contact with and damages the second ball in the stack.

Do we have a Glossery section? Maybe now is a good time to start working on a definative Glossery. This is one of my biggest bug-bears with the sport. No consistent terminology.


I'll start a glossary sticky on this forum. Feel free to post up - once we've decided on a final definition then I'll move it into the first post. We can figure out what to do once the thread gets too long.

#67 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:23 AM

my question is that a loader/bolt/breach interaction that breaks a ball - is that really a true barrel break? a barrel break to me would be defined as a paintball failing due to the interaction with the barrel.

i suggest a term called a "delayed chop" because the parts of the gun that are actually causing the failure has little to do with the barrel.

pure chop - defined as the bolt actually slicing a paintball between itself and the feed neck area, causing catastrophic failure.

delayed chop - defined as the bolt hitting the paintball and causing the ball to pinch or bind by hitting the breach features. later causing the power pulse to destroy the ball.

pure barrel break - defined as the paintball making it into the breach with no gun or loader induced flaws. this ball fails when hit with the power pulse.



as for cuases - a pure chop is a failure of the gun/loader interaction. somehow the eyes are tripping and the bolt is cycling before the ball is fully loaded.

for pure barrel breaks - the only real way that can happen is a failure of the paintball itself. likely, this paintball would fail in any gun, depending a bit on the power pulse.

the hard part is this new information, about gun induced barrel breaks.

Edited by cockerpunk, 17 November 2008 - 10:29 AM.

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#68 Snipez4664

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:54 AM

I don't like (ok, hate) the term "delayed chop" - chop is a specific way that a ball breaks due to bolt force and feedneck position - the ball is chopped in half by the bolt.

I propose we call the intermediate case, a barrel break caused by the loading process, a "stress break" - it is caused due to damage on the ball creating a stress riser that leads to shell failure.

The case of the acceleration of the ball or the air pulse, or friction actually breaking the ball, we can call that a barrel break, or a pure barrel break if you like.

EDIT: For purposes of gratuitous gloating, it's not new information - I told ya so, Gordon. :) Good to see it in empirical (data) form from Jack.

Edited by Snipez4664, 17 November 2008 - 10:56 AM.

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#69 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:58 AM

I don't like (ok, hate) the term "delayed chop" - chop is a specific way that a ball breaks due to bolt force and feedneck position - the ball is chopped in half by the bolt.

I propose we call the intermediate case, a barrel break caused by the loading process, a "stress break" - it is caused due to damage on the ball creating a stress riser that leads to shell failure.

The case of the acceleration of the ball or the air pulse, or friction actually breaking the ball, we can call that a barrel break, or a pure barrel break if you like.


i could go with "stress break" but what is causing that stress? the bolt/loader/breach. that to me shows that is not a "barrel break"

idk, just thinking outside my head.

when its equations, its easy, its those funny letters without operators, i think they call them words and sentences that are difficult to work with.
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#70 Snipez4664

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:08 AM

I gotcha bro, I just think that calling it a chop suggests a very SPECIFIC type of interaction.

Now everyone STFU and read this, you'll enjoy it

http://www.mech.uwa..../intro.html#top

Edited by Snipez4664, 17 November 2008 - 11:10 AM.

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#71 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:13 AM

I gotcha bro, I just think that calling it a chop suggests a very SPECIFIC type of interaction.

Now everyone STFU and read this, you'll enjoy it

http://www.mech.uwa..../intro.html#top


maybe instead of calling is a type of chop, or type of barrel break, but a new term all together?

fracture is a very interesting mechanical situation. we have full semester long classes at the grad school level on fracture mechanics. taht is a good link if you want to know a good background.

how about a stress fracture break? idk - just tossing terms out there.

Edited by cockerpunk, 17 November 2008 - 11:14 AM.

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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#72 Snipez4664

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:35 AM

EDIT: to be read in a playful tone, not that of a dick!

Having completed my university education, I'm more convinced than ever that a properly motivated person can learn all they need from books/the internet. The problem is one of recursion - Many people that read those lengths won't have the necessary background in mathematics, and so much of the insight it provides will be lost. There are great math resources out there to bridge this gap - "Paul's Math tutorial" from a Lamar university professor is my personal favorite.

I proposed, and stand by, chop/ stress break/ barrel break! I think it gets the idea across, at any rate - the important bit is how to best make the division clear. I suppose you could call it a "loading crack" or something like that as well, but the salient point is that the ball arrives as damaged goods. Are we 100% sure we've seen a real barrel break? I feel like we need to crank up the velo on hand loaded balls until they break consistently - my position all along has been that the power pulse is too consistently delivered to produce the freak barrel break events. You can probably prove this (confidence intervals, anyway) if you found how much energy had to be delivered to the ball before you start breaking it consistently.

Oh hey look, a test! I'm sure you're quite proud of me now.

</handwaving>

Edited by Snipez4664, 17 November 2008 - 11:36 AM.

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#73 Jack Wood

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:36 AM

maybe instead of calling is a type of chop, or type of barrel break, but a new term all together?

fracture is a very interesting mechanical situation. we have full semester long classes at the grad school level on fracture mechanics. taht is a good link if you want to know a good background.

how about a stress fracture break? idk - just tossing terms out there.


I don't like the delayed chop either. Chop is, like Ryan said, a specific case.

There is going to be a small problem. I don't think the loading/feeding/ball-pushed-into-barrel part of the cycle can be completely eliminated from a "Pure Barrel Break" occurance. The process of loading to firing-point will have an effect on the ball in one way or another. I think a term can be created for a Breech Break/Loading Fracture.......I like "Loading Fracture" BTW as in the videos you can catagorically see that the ball will explode in the barrel before it is fired. The problem comes when a ball has been weekened by the loading process, but not to the point that a failure is visable before firing.

So how about Loading Fracture or Loading Failure?

Jack
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#74 Snipez4664

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:43 AM

Jack, might be too much to ask, but can you see paint seepage through the shell at all prior to the ball being fired? If so(or even if not, come to think of it), are the loading failures chiefly occurring at the seam?
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#75 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:43 AM

I don't like the delayed chop either. Chop is, like Ryan said, a specific case.

There is going to be a small problem. I don't think the loading/feeding/ball-pushed-into-barrel part of the cycle can be completely eliminated from a "Pure Barrel Break" occurance. The process of loading to firing-point will have an effect on the ball in one way or another. I think a term can be created for a Breech Break/Loading Fracture.......I like "Loading Fracture" BTW as in the videos you can catagorically see that the ball will explode in the barrel before it is fired. The problem comes when a ball has been weekened by the loading process, but not to the point that a failure is visable before firing.

So how about Loading Fracture or Loading Failure?

Jack


ok, i could go with loading failure.



snipez, its clear IMO that a pure barrel break can really only be an error of flaw in the paint.
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#76 Snipez4664

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:54 AM

ok, i could go with loading failure.

snipez, its clear IMO that a pure barrel break can really only be an error of flaw in the paint.


I don't disagree in principle, but...

That isn't really the point of the exercise - the point is to see how big a flaw is required before failure is induced. From the high speed videos it seems that failure does not occur wholesale until the power pulse hits the ball. I am unsure of how big a crack needs to occur - the easiest way at this point is likely to ask jack. Still, seeing what the margin of safety the power pulse has doesn't interest you?
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#77 brycelarson

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 12:40 PM

So how about Loading Fracture or Loading Failure?


I like loading fracture

Loading failure sounds like the gun failed to load - and it didn't. It just loaded in a way that damaged the ball.

To specify even further - I would suggest that any event that damaged the ball enough that paint was outside the ball in any quantity would fall under the "chop" definition - even if it wasn't a chopping action that caused that damage.

If a ball is damaged in a way that's not visible to the naked eye - then we're talking about a loading fracture.

In other words - in future video of paintballs breaking - if the ball arrives in the barrel already leaking fill - that's a chop. If it arrives in the barrel not leaking fill but having sustained damage and the air pulse causes the first loss of fill - then that's a loading fracture.

If it arrives in the barrel in good condition and then fails due to either air pulse or barrel interaction - that's a barrel break.

And to answer a question asked above - No, we have never had proof that a "pure barrel break" exists.

#78 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 01:22 PM

I don't disagree in principle, but...

That isn't really the point of the exercise - the point is to see how big a flaw is required before failure is induced. From the high speed videos it seems that failure does not occur wholesale until the power pulse hits the ball. I am unsure of how big a crack needs to occur - the easiest way at this point is likely to ask jack. Still, seeing what the margin of safety the power pulse has doesn't interest you?


indeed it does.

but we are limited by the pure kinematics of it all. we have a time we need to accelerate the ball in, so the force can only ever be so low. to go any lower means changing the time, and thus the barrel length, efficiency ...

in terms of pure barrel break is, IMO, not something our gun/loader/barrel can really prevent. that is what i have been thinking since the barrel break test.

the question though has become - is there such a thing as a pure barrel break?

meaning, as i asked before is there a way that a paintball might find itself in the breach of the gun unharmed by teh gun, and yet still weak enough to be blown up by the power pulse.

i think finding that out is going to be a tricky endeavor.


but i like our new term, loading fracture.

i know thats something snipez has been thinking for a long time too.

i would love to see a tapered barrel breach, or something like that. otherwise, im not sure exactly how and what breach features need to be changed to prevent breaks. it seems to me it is more like a loader/gun issue then anything else.

Edited by cockerpunk, 17 November 2008 - 01:23 PM.

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#79 scoreshot

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 02:11 PM

indeed it does.

but we are limited by the pure kinematics of it all. we have a time we need to accelerate the ball in, so the force can only ever be so low. to go any lower means changing the time, and thus the barrel length, efficiency ...

in terms of pure barrel break is, IMO, not something our gun/loader/barrel can really prevent. that is what i have been thinking since the barrel break test.

the question though has become - is there such a thing as a pure barrel break?

meaning, as i asked before is there a way that a paintball might find itself in the breach of the gun unharmed by teh gun, and yet still weak enough to be blown up by the power pulse.

i think finding that out is going to be a tricky endeavor.


but i like our new term, loading fracture.

i know thats something snipez has been thinking for a long time too.

i would love to see a tapered barrel breach, or something like that. otherwise, im not sure exactly how and what breach features need to be changed to prevent breaks. it seems to me it is more like a loader/gun issue then anything else.


Speaking only for the Tippmann a5 marker, Palmers brass barrels, Hammerhead Fins, J&J, and Smart Parts backs feature a tapered breech. The distance the ball must travel from the time the air discharge event first occurs, to the time the ball reaches the control bore has a measurable and repeatable influence on what I refer to as "pre-control bore blow-by". But this thread is about the breech and breaks and not air efficiency so I guess I should leave it at that for now. Posted Image





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#80 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 07:41 PM

Speaking only for the Tippmann a5 marker, Palmers brass barrels, Hammerhead Fins, J&J, and Smart Parts backs feature a tapered breech. The distance the ball must travel from the time the air discharge event first occurs, to the time the ball reaches the control bore has a measurable and repeatable influence on what I refer to as "pre-control bore blow-by". But this thread is about the breech and breaks and not air efficiency so I guess I should leave it at that for now. Posted Image


yes, most barrels do have a small taper, i was thinking a much more gradual taper maybe a 1/3 an inch deep.
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#81 VICE_ROY

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:17 AM

It's probably the paint.

Not to say that the paint has to be old/dimpled/brittle/in bad shape to break. All it takes is one imperfect ball in an entire case to cause a break.

Some days I can shoot a whole case or more with my Vice with no paint breakage of any sort in the gun. Others, I might get a couple of breaks. It's bound to happen to everyone.
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#82 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:05 AM

I like loading fracture

Loading failure sounds like the gun failed to load - and it didn't. It just loaded in a way that damaged the ball.

To specify even further - I would suggest that any event that damaged the ball enough that paint was outside the ball in any quantity would fall under the "chop" definition - even if it wasn't a chopping action that caused that damage.

If a ball is damaged in a way that's not visible to the naked eye - then we're talking about a loading fracture.

In other words - in future video of paintballs breaking - if the ball arrives in the barrel already leaking fill - that's a chop. If it arrives in the barrel not leaking fill but having sustained damage and the air pulse causes the first loss of fill - then that's a loading fracture.

If it arrives in the barrel in good condition and then fails due to either air pulse or barrel interaction - that's a barrel break.

And to answer a question asked above - No, we have never had proof that a "pure barrel break" exists.


No, I can't go along with that terminology, sorry.

A Chop actually severs the call in half during loading. Pinched between the front face of the feed tube and the face of the bolt as the bolt cycles forward.

In my eyes, and obviously Ryans as well, there is a clear distinction between Chop and fracture. A chop is a term that has been around for decades, and is Gordon and Ryan says, is a pretty specific mode of failure. With a chop, the ball has fully failed before it is fired.

with this new term, we are trying to explain a partial failure, or weakening of the structure of the ball that leads to a catastrofic failure when subjected to the power pulse. The power pulse isn't the root cause of the failure.

To answer the questions:

Ryan, yes you can see seepage from the ball prior to firing. This fractures can occur in a number of ways, and to varying degrees, but they are all visible prior to firing. After quite a few instances of different types of Loading Fracture we could determine the cause of the loading fracture by looking at the resultant mess. We didn't need to play back the footage to tell us what had cause the failure. We could quite quickly align the results of the failure with the mode of fracture.

Ryan, no, I cannot think of a single failure/fracture that occurred on the seam. I am of the feeling that failure is not seam/orientation specific. Just like when you drop very fragile paintballs they never break on the seam. Or rather, very very very rarely.

Bryce, we did not see one single "incident" in the breech that led to a true barrel break. The ball looked in perfect condition prior to a true barrel break. By Bryces definition, it would therefore be impossible to say what had cause "fracture" or where a fracture was, or which ball had a fracture that led to a "fracture" barrel break versus a pure barrel break.

If you want to investigate pure barrel breaks, you need to remove the loading from the sequence. That means either muzzle loading (remove barrel, place ball in barrel, fire ball, repeat, a lot) or at the very least, pump loading. I am confident that if you 1-ball loaded into a pump breech and did the test that way you would get the result you are looking for. No need to muzzle load at this stage.


By the way, is it breech or breach ;) OK, it's breech, just to save you looking it up :)
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#83 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:11 AM

I am unsure of how big a crack needs to occur - the easiest way at this point is likely to ask jack. Still, seeing what the margin of safety the power pulse has doesn't interest you?


I did an interesting test the other day. I got some paint that was pretty robust. In tesing we hab't broken any of this paint in a gun/barrel. I got a blade, and made a puncture in the side, similar to the cracks we later saw in the HSV test, and fired a few balls through a gun.

What happened?

Nothing. Nada. The ball fired out without exploding and even chronoed at full velocity!! What?? I repeated it a dozn times with a slit in the ball up to 5mm long. Same result.

I was amazed, to say the least.

I didn't try it with the "fragile" paint we shot for the HSV shoot, but maybe I should go and grab some and see what happens with that..............
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#84 Lord Odin

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 07:47 AM

yes, most barrels do have a small taper, i was thinking a much more gradual taper maybe a 1/3 an inch deep.


Could you explain that further? I'm confused. The barrels SS is referring to are much longer than 1/3" and taper from about .700 to close to the control bore size. It is very gradual.

I did an interesting test the other day. I got some paint that was pretty robust. In tesing we hab't broken any of this paint in a gun/barrel. I got a blade, and made a puncture in the side, similar to the cracks we later saw in the HSV test, and fired a few balls through a gun.

What happened?

Nothing. Nada. The ball fired out without exploding and even chronoed at full velocity!! What?? I repeated it a dozn times with a slit in the ball up to 5mm long. Same result.

I was amazed, to say the least.

I didn't try it with the "fragile" paint we shot for the HSV shoot, but maybe I should go and grab some and see what happens with that..............


I thought about doing that exact same thing when I was testing whether ball's were colliding in the barrel. I opted not to do that because I wasn't absolutely certain the balls would disintegrate in the barrel when fired. So I cut them completely in half instead to remove any doubt. I was surprised how hard they are to actually cut. A few were really easy, though, and just crumbled when I started cutting. It made me think that there are weak spots in the shell from the manufacturing process. Where some balls have thicker shells than others and almost always away from the seam.

Edited by Lord Odin, 18 November 2008 - 07:50 AM.


#85 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 08:38 AM

I did an interesting test the other day. I got some paint that was pretty robust. In tesing we hab't broken any of this paint in a gun/barrel. I got a blade, and made a puncture in the side, similar to the cracks we later saw in the HSV test, and fired a few balls through a gun.

What happened?

Nothing. Nada. The ball fired out without exploding and even chronoed at full velocity!! What?? I repeated it a dozn times with a slit in the ball up to 5mm long. Same result.

I was amazed, to say the least.

I didn't try it with the "fragile" paint we shot for the HSV shoot, but maybe I should go and grab some and see what happens with that..............


that's fascinating stuff man.

ok, based on what you reported on the cracks - AND that you could see paint outside on those w/o full failure - I retract my suggestion that a loading fracture wouldn't show any fill outside.

#86 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:11 AM


WOW!!!!

STOP THE PRESS!!!


I have been going through the footage and I have found something that I think is AMAZING!! (but that doesn't mean much, right?)

I said before, at the end of the day we shot some glass barrel footage at 50,000fps with 1/355000 shutter speed.

Well, we caught something we didn't see on the day, but when blown up and viewed on a big screen CLEARLY shows a spot on the surface of the ball RIPPLING at the interface with the barrel bore!!! I can't think off the top of my head what it reminds me of........ok got it.. You know those shots of someone with their head stuck out of a car window going fast? The way their skin on their face ripples? Like that. No it doesn't oscillate like a ballon full of water, but this surface ripple is there.

Out of further interest, this paint was paint we had started to use for testing guns, but had found that we were getting constent breaks in the test room, so we shelved it. We kept it for these test. But on the day, we never got one of these balls to break in a gun or barrel. But we did capture this with them!! Maybe this is the cause, or a least an element of true barrel break??

The ripples occured over the first 4 to 4 1/2 inches before dying out.

Edited by Jack Wood, 18 November 2008 - 09:22 AM.

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#87 moyster14

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:49 AM

Very cool. I've been wondering about that exact thing very recently. Applying the pulse could cause the paintball to resonate, which doesn't exactly sound like what you observed. Someone was bound to see something interesting in that very short time range. I mean a paintball is basically being accelerated from 0 to ~6000g's (estimated) in less then a millisecond, that has to effect the paintball in some way. But depending on the severity of the ripple that could definitely induce a failure, especially at a weak spot.

I wonder how that ripple would change if the breech pressure was reduced.
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#88 cockerpunk

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:18 AM


WOW!!!!

STOP THE PRESS!!!


I have been going through the footage and I have found something that I think is AMAZING!! (but that doesn't mean much, right?)

I said before, at the end of the day we shot some glass barrel footage at 50,000fps with 1/355000 shutter speed.

Well, we caught something we didn't see on the day, but when blown up and viewed on a big screen CLEARLY shows a spot on the surface of the ball RIPPLING at the interface with the barrel bore!!! I can't think off the top of my head what it reminds me of........ok got it.. You know those shots of someone with their head stuck out of a car window going fast? The way their skin on their face ripples? Like that. No it doesn't oscillate like a ballon full of water, but this surface ripple is there.

Out of further interest, this paint was paint we had started to use for testing guns, but had found that we were getting constent breaks in the test room, so we shelved it. We kept it for these test. But on the day, we never got one of these balls to break in a gun or barrel. But we did capture this with them!! Maybe this is the cause, or a least an element of true barrel break??

The ripples occured over the first 4 to 4 1/2 inches before dying out.


please post this video of screen shots please!

simon told me that whenever he saw any kind of visual deformation, it lead to failure.
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#89 Snipez4664

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:47 AM

The question in my mind is whether said ripples are friction created (ever seen a dragster tire folding in on itself?) or acceleration/inertia. Based on the break pattern in simon's video, I'd say almost certainly acceleration based. I'm more curious than ever about "pure" barrel breaks now...rare though they may be.
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#90 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:06 AM

must see video.....

what do you mean by "the interface with the barrel bore!!!"?

Does this mean that you're seeing a ripple along a circumferecne of the ball where it interacts with the barrel - or does the ripple originate at the rear and has traveled up to the place where it interacts with the barrel?

how big is the file size? is it something you could just send some screen caps from? If it's not huge I could host it for a while to let people download it.

#91 moyster14

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:12 AM

The question in my mind is whether said ripples are friction created (ever seen a dragster tire folding in on itself?) or acceleration/inertia. Based on the break pattern in simon's video, I'd say almost certainly acceleration based. I'm more curious than ever about "pure" barrel breaks now...rare though they may be.


Now that brings up a good point. Does the bore size play a role? If the ripples are more caused by the acceleration, which so far I agree with, then probably not. But if the ripple is cause because of the friction, (or the transition from static friction to dynamic friction regime), then maybe it does. But as with everything regarding barrel breaks it's probably a combination of the two.

Jack, what bore size were you using?
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#92 Troy

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:40 AM

hmm... this brings up an interesting question. Could you bore a barrel with a series of ridges so that it causes a destructive interference with this wave that is propagating along the surface of the paintball?

We know the speed it should be going, and we roughly know the mass and size of the paintball... so it seems doable to tune a barrel accordingly. Maybe if there was a variable ramp to the control bore in a wave like pattern, so it prolongs the initial impulse over time and changes the location of impact on the ball.

Of course you have to be careful, in 3d structures where you have deconstructive interference, there is often constructive interference as well.

Edited by Troy, 18 November 2008 - 11:49 AM.

\m/

#93 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:04 PM

Now that brings up a good point. Does the bore size play a role? If the ripples are more caused by the acceleration, which so far I agree with, then probably not. But if the ripple is cause because of the friction, (or the transition from static friction to dynamic friction regime), then maybe it does. But as with everything regarding barrel breaks it's probably a combination of the two.

Jack, what bore size were you using?


the question of friction would be interesting. In our barrel testing we've shoved mid sized balls through small barrels (.687/.689 balls through .679 bore) - and have shown a drastic increase in velocity - which indicates that friction is certainly not a factor in velocity - however, this doesn't necessarily mean that friction doesn't have any effect on the ball itself.

#94 cockerpunk

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:10 PM

the question of friction would be interesting. In our barrel testing we've shoved mid sized balls through small barrels (.687/.689 balls through .679 bore) - and have shown a drastic increase in velocity - which indicates that friction is certainly not a factor in velocity - however, this doesn't necessarily mean that friction doesn't have any effect on the ball itself.


more correctly, that the better seal that underboring provides offsets the increased friction.

my thoughts are with simon, that any point source large physical deformation will probably lead to failure.

of course that failure will be due to brittle fracture and perhaps your "rippling" paintball are due to the paintball becoming ductile over time.

still need screenshots or video man!

Edited by cockerpunk, 18 November 2008 - 12:10 PM.

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#95 Lord Odin

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:12 PM

In what direction is the ripple going and on which half of the ball does it happen (ie - breech end or muzzle end)? Its possible that it could be a type of shock wave from the power pulse. Think of it as a wave that occurs when you push quickly and stop suddenly with your hand.

I agree that it would help tremendously to see a video of the ripple in action.

#96 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:57 PM

OK, for now I can't post video, sorry. Both my bosses are out of the country and until I get permission off them, I am not posting anything.

The rippling is in a localized pocket, around 3-4mm in diameter. It looks like there is a "soft spot" on the surface of the ball. Luckily it was facing towards camera, and the lighting was such that it caught it perfectly. The shot from the camera has the barrel running left to right across the screen, with about 7-8 inches of the barrel in shot. The ball moves left to right. The pocket of disruption is, taking the ball as the face of a clock, is in the region of about 5:30-6:30, so on, and just behind where the ball is contacting the barrel bore.

This isolated pocket is rippling like I described before. Like I said, it looks like a soft spot on the ball that is being effected. And as I mentioned before, there was no barrel break.

If I get the go-ahead, I'll post vids or pictures. Sorry for the delay.
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#97 cockerpunk

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:09 PM

OK, for now I can't post video, sorry. Both my bosses are out of the country and until I get permission off them, I am not posting anything.

The rippling is in a localized pocket, around 3-4mm in diameter. It looks like there is a "soft spot" on the surface of the ball. Luckily it was facing towards camera, and the lighting was such that it caught it perfectly. The shot from the camera has the barrel running left to right across the screen, with about 7-8 inches of the barrel in shot. The ball moves left to right. The pocket of disruption is, taking the ball as the face of a clock, is in the region of about 5:30-6:30, so on, and just behind where the ball is contacting the barrel bore.

This isolated pocket is rippling like I described before. Like I said, it looks like a soft spot on the ball that is being effected. And as I mentioned before, there was no barrel break.

If I get the go-ahead, I'll post vids or pictures. Sorry for the delay.


if you are overboring that might confirm our thoughts on overboring actually concentrating the stress and causing failures. rather the the great force from underboring, but much much more spread out.
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#98 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:20 PM

OK, for now I can't post video, sorry. Both my bosses are out of the country and until I get permission off them, I am not posting anything.

The rippling is in a localized pocket, around 3-4mm in diameter. It looks like there is a "soft spot" on the surface of the ball. Luckily it was facing towards camera, and the lighting was such that it caught it perfectly. The shot from the camera has the barrel running left to right across the screen, with about 7-8 inches of the barrel in shot. The ball moves left to right. The pocket of disruption is, taking the ball as the face of a clock, is in the region of about 5:30-6:30, so on, and just behind where the ball is contacting the barrel bore.

This isolated pocket is rippling like I described before. Like I said, it looks like a soft spot on the ball that is being effected. And as I mentioned before, there was no barrel break.

If I get the go-ahead, I'll post vids or pictures. Sorry for the delay.


so the ripple is circular and one portion of the circumference of that circle is in contact with the barrel?

That sounds to me like stright up air pressure caused it. If it was due to an air hammer effect - you would expect it to be centered near the rear of the ball. If it were due to friction - you would expect it to be in more of a semi-circular shape around where the ball was contacting the barrel.

This sounds like the pressure behind the ball is exposing a manufacturing flaw in the shell. We've all seen balls with thick and thin spots on the shell.

Fire those pics up when you've got the ok, we can wait (just not that long....)

The fact that there was no break is possibly the most facinating part of this whole thing. This the first proof that I think anyone has of a ball deforming in any way w/o failing.

#99 moyster14

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:27 PM

if you are overboring that might confirm our thoughts on overboring actually concentrating the stress and causing failures. rather the the great force from underboring, but much much more spread out.


It could also just be a bad/thin spot on the ball.

Was this the only ball you saw this rippling on? Because if you have seen it only on one, then I would think that the problem would be localized to the paintball. Of course if the barrel is overbored, the ripples could be just were the paintball is touching the barrel, which would mean that friction is the cause.
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#100 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:33 PM

It could also just be a bad/thin spot on the ball.

Was this the only ball you saw this rippling on? Because if you have seen it only on one, then I would think that the problem would be localized to the paintball. Of course if the barrel is overbored, the ripples could be just were the paintball is touching the barrel, which would mean that friction is the cause.


or if it's overbored it could be that the dent / ripple is from the spot that the ball last bumped the interior of the barrel- more a dent from collision than from friction.




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