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so what actually cuases barrel breaks?


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#101 moyster14

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:38 PM

or if it's overbored it could be that the dent / ripple is from the spot that the ball last bumped the interior of the barrel- more a dent from collision than from friction.


That would also be a possibility. I think we could tell depending on the direction the ripples are moving. If the ripples move away in a circle from a centerpoint, collision. If the ripples tend to move more from the right to left, friction.
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#102 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:50 PM

I would have called it a matched fit. It wasn't super tight, and it wasn't fall through. But interestingly again, you can see on the vid that the ball-edge nearest the camera goes through phases of contact and no contact with the barrel. Whether this be the ball moving side to side in the barrel or swelling and contracting, it is impossible to tell.




If you had to ask me what was causing it, I would say it was air pressure exploiting a weak spot in the shells structure. But obviously you guys need to see it and make up your own minds.

Yes this was the only instance of this that we saw. That in itself is a bit of a miracle, because we actually only saved 3 clips of the ball traveling the length of the tube from this orientation. That we 1) captured a ball that displayed this and 2) that the deformation was facing the camera are both incredibly lucky.

Again, like I said, this paint had previously (the week before) been rejected from the test room (where we test guns) because it had been getting random blow-ups in the barrel. So we know that this paint had a propensity to failure due to pure barrel breaks. Now what happened to the paint in the week between being shot in the test room, and what we shot on the HSV day, I cannot say. But, we didn't experience any barrel OR load fractures during the shooting of the film. So the paint obviously became more robust, or malleable, and became less prone to breakage. But maybe these weak spots that we saw here are the same weak spots that a week earlier would have propagated into a true barrel break. We may never know, but it seems a logical line of progression.
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#103 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:53 PM

That would also be a possibility. I think we could tell depending on the direction the ripples are moving. If the ripples move away in a circle from a centerpoint, collision. If the ripples tend to move more from the right to left, friction.


For clarification, I am not talking ripples like the ripples on a pond. This is a small patch that craters and deforms and moves around slightly and then returns to a smooth spherical surface.
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#104 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:00 PM

For clarification, I am not talking ripples like the ripples on a pond. This is a small patch that craters and deforms and moves around slightly and then returns to a smooth spherical surface.


that description mixed with the fact that you saw the ball coming into and leaving contact with the barrel would lead me to believe that it's a collision with the barrel.

very exciting stuff.

#105 cockerpunk

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:24 PM

For clarification, I am not talking ripples like the ripples on a pond. This is a small patch that craters and deforms and moves around slightly and then returns to a smooth spherical surface.


i think we just explained the results we got on the barrel break test.
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#106 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:31 PM

i think we just explained the results we got on the barrel break test.


Mmmmm, not convinced. You have said several times that paint started right near the entrance to the barrel, mainly at the top. From what we saw, breaks matching that description were caused by 2 specific types of Loading Fracture. The pure barrel breaks we saw didn't start anywhere close to the start of the barrel.
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#107 cockerpunk

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:40 PM

Mmmmm, not convinced. You have said several times that paint started right near the entrance to the barrel, mainly at the top. From what we saw, breaks matching that description were caused by 2 specific types of Loading Fracture. The pure barrel breaks we saw didn't start anywhere close to the start of the barrel.


but if this is what you describe it as, we are looking at a point where the paintball is hitting the side wall of the barrel hard enough to deform. in that case, with more brittle paint we would probably see a barrel break due to its less ductile properties.

it simply shows that force is concentrated in an overbore situation, leading to higher stress. in an underbore, there is more force, but the distributions of that force prevents the stress from building up.
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#108 FearLess_Leader

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 07:55 PM

Couple of question. After reading 6 pages this might not come out right...

Might I suggest unboreing to the point you will force a break in the barrel to see what exactly or, at least an idea, of what is happening to the ball.

There was mentioned that the breaks in the barrel happen several inches in front of the breach(or did I read that wrong?) Could this be an effect of a liquid encased by a solid? Like when you spin an egg, then stop it, let it go again, and it keeps spining. Is it possible that the break is happening further back and that the fill just takes a while before it hits the sides?
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#109 SnowFlake

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 08:28 PM

a continuation of the discussion we were having earlier this month.

my question ...

i get barrel beaks with a pump gun - why?

i know they are not chops, because i can feel that, but i do get barrel breaks. does anyone have a theory as to why?



yes i acctully do have a theory to that. And it dose have to do with bore size a little. What i think the problem may be is when you finish loading the gun for the next round the seem of he ball may be facing virtical or near virtical. if the bore size is to big i believe like you deminstrated in the egg video you did that it gets an uneven distibution of air and is unable to keep its shape as well andso the balls seem then ripes giving you a "barrel break." Although When the bore size is to small under the same conditions since the air in most guns when it is released has more of a grasping effect where it hits what ever there is on the ball and not like an Alian where they have a bolt design made to try to give the ball a back spin while hitting a surtain part of the ball. The ball in normmal guns will propel forward and stay for just a little while in the same possion where the seam is virtical when the bore size is to small the barrel will then act on one of the laws of physics and try to prevent it from moving. The seam then gets ripped open then instead of shot threw. Just as well it may not be ether of thoughs that is pure speculation untile i acctully get the money to conducked the exsperimant. My other thought is that if you are useing co2 and have set youv locity to a surtain fps that maybe there are spicks and the added pressure may be what is breaking the balls. also the speed of witch you are pumping and shooting may be a contributing factor as well.
Yet again ill send you a video on this as soon as i get the money around and the time from the field to do this. i will also send you all of my data on the test as well
I will test ball possition, bore size in over bore, under bore, and at bore size
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along with verring vlocities at 250, 300, and 350
Then i will try to get my autococker (witch works as you know off a closed bolt system like many other pumps out there) and try to get a consistant speed (in bps) of 5, 7, 9, and 11 (i stop at 11 cause idk if anyone can trully reach past 11 on a pump)
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#110 brycelarson

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:45 PM

I will test ball possition, bore size in over bore, under bore, and at bore size
also with high, medium, and low grade paint
along with verring vlocities at 250, 300, and 350
Then i will try to get my autococker (witch works as you know off a closed bolt system like many other pumps out there) and try to get a consistant speed (in bps) of 5, 7, 9, and 11 (i stop at 11 cause idk if anyone can trully reach past 11 on a pump)
If there is anything that i am missing please notify me.


Snowflake my young friend - I don't think you quite understand how large a test you're suggesting there. We would love to see whatever data you produce. good luck.

#111 Snipez4664

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:04 PM

but if this is what you describe it as, we are looking at a point where the paintball is hitting the side wall of the barrel hard enough to deform. in that case, with more brittle paint we would probably see a barrel break due to its less ductile properties.

it simply shows that force is concentrated in an overbore situation, leading to higher stress. in an underbore, there is more force, but the distributions of that force prevents the stress from building up.


Uhhh, I'm not so sure about this either. I'd like for this to mean something more than just a soft spot on the shell, but I'm not convinced it's bore collision at fault...we'd have to see the images.
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#112 Jack Wood

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 10:06 AM

but if this is what you describe it as, we are looking at a point where the paintball is hitting the side wall of the barrel hard enough to deform. in that case, with more brittle paint we would probably see a barrel break due to its less ductile properties.

it simply shows that force is concentrated in an overbore situation, leading to higher stress. in an underbore, there is more force, but the distributions of that force prevents the stress from building up.


No, that is not what I said. Ball collision is not causing the deformation. Absolutely not.

I said you can see what looks like the circumference of the ball coming into contact with and then moving away from the bore of the barrel. This is happening irrespective of the deformed pocket. There is no visable connection between the 2 occurences, that I can see.

I am in discussions about posting vid or pics at the moment. Fingers crossed......
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#113 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 10:11 AM

No, that is not what I said. Ball collision is not causing the deformation. Absolutely not.

I said you can see what looks like the circumference of the ball coming into contact with and then moving away from the bore of the barrel. This is happening irrespective of the deformed pocket. There is no visable connection between the 2 occurences, that I can see.

I am in discussions about posting vid or pics at the moment. Fingers crossed......


ah

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Edited by cockerpunk, 19 November 2008 - 10:22 AM.

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#114 moyster14

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 10:20 AM

Uhhh, I'm not so sure about this either. I'd like for this to mean something more than just a soft spot on the shell, but I'm not convinced it's bore collision at fault...we'd have to see the images.


I agree, if the deformation is towards the bottom of the paintball the concentrated force from overboring doesn't make sense, to me anyways. The barrel isn't a major overbore, so the paintball is going to be touch multiple points of the barrel anyway. So the collision with the barrel shouldn't be the cause and neither would friction for that matter.

I'd like for it to be something more than a soft spot too, but that's what it looks like so far. Lets think about. Every paintball fired will see the same loading cycle. The only thing that really isn't consistent is the seam orientation. Assuming seam orientation plays a very minor role, if anything in the loading cycle was a major contributor, a "barrel break" should happen more consistently than they do. So what's left, the paint. Now don't get me wrong, I think how the paintball gets from the loader into the barrel plays a role, but I am starting to lean to what happens to the paintball in the factory maybe the underlying cause.
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#115 brycelarson

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:13 AM

Now don't get me wrong, I think how the paintball gets from the loader into the barrel plays a role, but I am starting to lean to what happens to the paintball in the factory maybe the underlying cause.


I would love if there was some major factor involved that I could control - but I'm on the same page (as is Gordon I think) - it's really coming down to paint.

#116 Snipez4664

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:24 AM

I disagree - the loading process is VERY inconsistent...I think this is what led Jack and myself to the conclusion before any of this testing that it is likely where things are at fault.

Consider that guns deliver energy consistently within a few percent, and in a manner that is tailor made to not be rough on balls, and in a space that is constrained to within a few thousandths, give or take, or the ball diameter.

In loading, you're talking about a situation where things are IMPACTING each other, often with millimeters of play (which is what, 39 thou?), for the bolt contacting the ball, the bolt clipping the stack, and the ball smashing into the breech bottom (which is hugely variable, especially if your bolt happens to time it right that the ball can really get up to speed.

While you may not be able to prevent every break, I think that the gun is likely a major factor in break frequency. I wouldn't try to offload this ALL on paint quality - it's not my style.
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#117 Jack Wood

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:29 AM

I disagree - the loading process is VERY inconsistent...I think this is what led Jack and myself to the conclusion before any of this testing that it is likely where things are at fault.

Consider that guns deliver energy consistently within a few percent, and in a manner that is tailor made to not be rough on balls,


Er, I thing you give gun designers a bit too much credit here................!!

While you may not be able to prevent every break, I think that the gun is likely a major factor in break frequency.



Can we maybe lay a little blame on the loader manufacturers here? Us poor ol' gun engineers are getting a bit of a rough ride ;)
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#118 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:35 AM

well the demand for faster and faster loaders certainly has not helped the goal of being gentle on paint and preventing breaks.

one reason if i buy a new loader, its gonna be a prophecy not a rotor, because the magna kit is designed to be fast, and gentle, and the rotors system (while stunningly impressive) just isn't.

its defiantly an interaction effect. and more then just blaming the loader, its the synchronization of the loader with the gun.

but i keep going though my mind ways to make them sync the firing cycle with the loader cycle, but im not coming up with much.
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#119 moyster14

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:11 PM

That's true. Some are more gentile than others but most loaders now a days are purely design for shoving paint down a guns throat. It's to the point that basically every paintball is getting abused by the loader on the way to the breech and then abused again in the breech. Now assuming that the loading cycle (for the loader to the barrel) was all that inconsistent, wouldn't you see more breaks than you do? I'm trying to understand Snipez, I really am, it's just not clicking yet.

And for the record not putting it all the blame on the paint manufactures, some goes to the loaders and even less goes to Jack. ;)
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#120 Snipez4664

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:16 PM

I mean the power pulse, Jack, is a compressible fluid consistently delivered and spread over the entire rear surface of a sphere. I wasn't suggesting intelligent design.

Syncing the loader and gun isn't hard in these terms - You'd have to have an eye at the base of the feedneck to make sure a ball was waiting on top of the bolt, and not open the breech until after that occurs. Good luck making that happen with an open bolt gun, though. :)

Beyond that you'd have to ensure the stack was always full, which unless your hopper is VERY consistent (rotor?) is tough.

Consider that the Rotor has a shorter stack of balls to apply pressure to than the prophecy, F=MA suggests to me that it can be easier on paint at the same level of preload acceleration. Certainly the Magna clutch system has proven to have an advantage over other contemporary laoders (Rotor excluded, here, I simply don't know which will be better there) when it comes to loading paint gently.
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#121 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 01:12 PM

I mean the power pulse, Jack, is a compressible fluid consistently delivered and spread over the entire rear surface of a sphere. I wasn't suggesting intelligent design.

Syncing the loader and gun isn't hard in these terms - You'd have to have an eye at the base of the feedneck to make sure a ball was waiting on top of the bolt, and not open the breech until after that occurs. Good luck making that happen with an open bolt gun, though. :)

Beyond that you'd have to ensure the stack was always full, which unless your hopper is VERY consistent (rotor?) is tough.

Consider that the Rotor has a shorter stack of balls to apply pressure to than the prophecy, F=MA suggests to me that it can be easier on paint at the same level of preload acceleration. Certainly the Magna clutch system has proven to have an advantage over other contemporary laoders (Rotor excluded, here, I simply don't know which will be better there) when it comes to loading paint gently.


idk, i just dont see a way without putting about 8 sets of eyes in the gun at very accurate locations a way to really make the loading cycle predictable enough to control.

maybe an old senis idea - like with thin fingers to sense where the ball is, and further, to position the ball?

rotating breach is a good idea, but the mechanical troubles would hard to iron out

idk guys, i just dont see a really great way of doing it.
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#122 Lord Odin

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 01:45 PM

Guys, you're forgetting about the Cyclone. It's pneumatic but it's in sync with the gun for every shot and the rest of the loader isn't putting pressure on the ball in the breech. It does have it's flaws with pressure/volume dependence, which can cause under/overcycling.

I'd like to see a electronically controlled cylcone that is connected to the gun's board. If the gun and loader's boards are married through a connector at the feedneck, sharing settings would be easy and need only one set of settings. Perhaps and on/off cycle and cycle timing settings to be shared so that the loader would know when to start/stop and how fast to load.

#123 scoreshot

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 01:54 PM

Guys, you're forgetting about the Cyclone. It's pneumatic but it's in sync with the gun for every shot and the rest of the loader isn't putting pressure on the ball in the breech. It does have it's flaws with pressure/volume dependence, which can cause under/overcycling.

I'd like to see a electronically controlled cylcone that is connected to the gun's board. If the gun and loader's boards are married through a connector at the feedneck, sharing settings would be easy and need only one set of settings. Perhaps and on/off cycle and cycle timing settings to be shared so that the loader would know when to start/stop and how fast to load.


Yup! The cyclone is exactly what came to my mind as well Odin. Sync it to the bolt cycle electronicly would be best of both worlds. Great idea!





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#124 Snipez4664

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 02:35 PM

Come to think of it, the old evil omen sort of does this too with the "cam drive"...check it out sometime. The salient point in all of these is that the ball is mechanically indexed (known position) before the gun has fired.
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#125 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:03 PM

Come to think of it, the old evil omen sort of does this too with the "cam drive"...check it out sometime. The salient point in all of these is that the ball is mechanically indexed (known position) before the gun has fired.


this is a much better idea

the cyclone is "snyced" in terms that it loads when the shot is fired.

but what kind of "synced" we are talking about is in terms of letting the ball bounce around in the breach, and making sure it is concentric with the bore within a thoundth or two.

so the omen might be the closest but the cyclone is no different then any other loader in the way we are talking about synced. it really no different then the intelli feed, RF sync, and any other system like that.

Edited by cockerpunk, 19 November 2008 - 03:04 PM.

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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#126 brycelarson

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:18 PM

this is a much better idea

the cyclone is "snyced" in terms that it loads when the shot is fired.

but what kind of "synced" we are talking about is in terms of letting the ball bounce around in the breach, and making sure it is concentric with the bore within a thoundth or two.

so the omen might be the closest but the cyclone is no different then any other loader in the way we are talking about synced. it really no different then the intelli feed, RF sync, and any other system like that.


I would think the most repeatably "syncing" system would be some sort of cylinder - think 6-shooter with scoops to grab paint off the stack of balls. An indexed rotating breech that acts as impeller and breech in one.

#127 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:26 PM

I would think the most repeatably "syncing" system would be some sort of cylinder - think 6-shooter with scoops to grab paint off the stack of balls. An indexed rotating breech that acts as impeller and breech in one.


yes, a rotating breech type system.
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#128 Snipez4664

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:27 PM

When I think "sync" I think "synchronous" - aligning events temporally. You're really talking more about spatially aligning things, concentricity, etc.

Both can be beneficial.
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#129 Jack Wood

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:29 PM

Producing a reliable, consistent system is NOT difficult. There are plenty of ways to do it, including some already existing ways, that work perfectly well.

The only problem is the speed at which they do it, and the "handling" during the process. If the world turned around and said "13bps is the fastest anyone is ever going to need/want to shoot" it would be a couple of months work and an HSV camera, tops, using existing technology, to come up with a loader and marker system that would "load" (note: Not shoot) 13 bps all day long without inducing any kind of loading fracture in even the most brittle paint. I think with a few more months concentrated work you could develop a power pulse that will then fire that paint reliably.

Unfortunately thought, we don't live in that world, and I, in some way, feel a little bit responsible for contributing towards the "Speed is King" ethos that surrounded (and to some marketing sense still does) the paintball market place.
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#130 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:34 PM

When I think "sync" I think "synchronous" - aligning events temporally. You're really talking more about spatially aligning things, concentricity, etc.

Both can be beneficial.



thanks for making that clear. thats what i ment.

jack, your right, if the loader and gun were integrated (like the omen) then that would simplify the problem considerably.
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#131 Jack Wood

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 04:53 PM

thanks for making that clear. thats what i ment.

jack, your right, if the loader and gun were integrated (like the omen) then that would simplify the problem considerably.


On the Omen, the loader was not integrated. The Omen was just an over-complication of a basic system. The Omen was a classic case of invention for inventions sake.

The Cyclone is far superior in many ways. Maybe you meant Cyclone? I really like the cyclone idea. Its execution is unattractive and impractical for the area of paintball that I am interested (tournament), but the concept is hugely interesting.
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#132 cockerpunk

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:39 AM

On the Omen, the loader was not integrated. The Omen was just an over-complication of a basic system. The Omen was a classic case of invention for inventions sake.

The Cyclone is far superior in many ways. Maybe you meant Cyclone? I really like the cyclone idea. Its execution is unattractive and impractical for the area of paintball that I am interested (tournament), but the concept is hugely interesting.


no, the omen jsut cycled to fast.

the bolt was open for such a short time, that it needed a system to shove a paintball in, and even a force feed loader couldn't keep up.

the omen was an interesting bit of paintball development.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#133 moyster14

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 03:38 PM

Producing a reliable, consistent system is NOT difficult. There are plenty of ways to do it, including some already existing ways, that work perfectly well.

The only problem is the speed at which they do it, and the "handling" during the process. If the world turned around and said "13bps is the fastest anyone is ever going to need/want to shoot" it would be a couple of months work and an HSV camera, tops, using existing technology, to come up with a loader and marker system that would "load" (note: Not shoot) 13 bps all day long without inducing any kind of loading fracture in even the most brittle paint. I think with a few more months concentrated work you could develop a power pulse that will then fire that paint reliably.

Unfortunately thought, we don't live in that world, and I, in some way, feel a little bit responsible for contributing towards the "Speed is King" ethos that surrounded (and to some marketing sense still does) the paintball market place.



It's funny that you mention that now as the rumors start to surface about Millenium dropping the bps cap to 10, potentially followed by the PSP and the NPPL. Who knows, maybe that day will come sooner than you think.

Edited by moyster14, 20 November 2008 - 03:39 PM.

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#134 oerllikon

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 03:42 PM

It would be awesome to see some of the high speed footage
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#135 Nick Brockdorff

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:44 PM

a continuation of the discussion we were having earlier this month.

my question ...

i get barrel beaks with a pump gun - why?

i know they are not chops, because i can feel that, but i do get barrel breaks. does anyone have a theory as to why?


In my experience, the vast majority of breaks are caused by the ball cracking prior to being shot - often you will be able to discern this type of crack, by the ball leaving a "snail trail" at the bottom of the barrel, instead of paint being evenly distributed in the circumference of the barrel, which signifies a chop.

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#136 Poe

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 11:13 AM

I thought it looked like it moved about 1 ball-width into the barrel - I'll try to get in touch with Simon and get verification.

I thought that the first movement was the loading stage - then the ball basically smashed in place when the air hit it.

I'll post up when I hear back from Simon.


Regarding Simon's videos..
Anyone else notice the top rear of the barrel is the first place paint is evident? Directly under the feed neck. Almost as if the paintball was already broken prior to chambering or the act of chambering caused the break. Just thought it was interesting.

#137 Chud Smacker

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 10:23 AM

im sure this has been said, im only reading the first page of posts, but, from what i see, people are saying its just because of the paint, thats simply not true. %50 of it is because of the paint, the other 50% is probably you're ball to bore match. If you have a very loose fit, the ball is obviously going to bounce around in the barrel, causing pressure on each side it hits, and if the paint is brittle it will break. Or if its a stronger paint, it will cause dimples and therefore shooting it way off target. And of course if you are shooting monster ball....Well you're a fucking dumbshit if you shoot monster ball. If you have a very tight fit, what i have noticed in my 5 years of paintball is that as soon as it enters the barrel, if the ball is not perfect, it instantly breaks. Right now im in canada, its cold as hell ( thats technicly WRONG to say lol) and i plan on doing more tests when summer hits.
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_______________________________________________________________________________
QUOTE (TechPB-Mike @ Nov 15 2008, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Goes anywhere? We've already gone somewhere, and anytime people think we have slowed down, we shift gears and put the pedal through the fuckin firewall, hit the nitrous button, and grit our teeth as we grab this entire industry by the hair and kick it in the ass.

We haven't even started, TechPB hasn't even rolled out of bed yet, paintball has idea what we are capable of......

#138 Poe

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:04 PM

Regarding Simon's videos..
Anyone else notice the top rear of the barrel is the first place paint is evident? Directly under the feed neck. Almost as if the paintball was already broken prior to chambering or the act of chambering caused the break. Just thought it was interesting.


manike99 (1 day ago)
"
..
The ball is broken at it's entry to, or before it actually enters the barrel. Most "barrel breaks" appear to be caused by issues before they enter the barrel itself.

The ball in this video was clipped by the top of the breech. You can see the slight smudge at the top of the breech even though the majority of the paint is spread out further down the barrel."

Interesting.

Removing the variables of loading stress and chambering stress might result in a barrel break tests with zero barrel breaks. :huh:

Results would be even more interesting is if seam orientation was taken into account.

#139 oerllikon

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:26 PM

Is it anything other than breaks during chambering, etc?
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#140 brycelarson

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:41 PM

Is it anything other than breaks during chambering, etc?


it's sort of looking like that might be the only real cause

that and just paint quality

#141 Jack Wood

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:19 PM

Sorry to resurrect this:

We have been doing more filming today and I am pretty excited about tomorrow. We have some paint that we have left in the warehouse for these tests and it is bloody perfect for seeing Pure barrel breaks!

Today we were focusing on the breech area, but still had the clear barrel on, and a brand new cutaway body, and we shot, say 200 rounds with zero discernable loading fractures, yet plenty of clear barrel breaks, with varying degrees of paint deposit in the barrel. tomorrow I am going to focus on the barrel and see if we can capture some of these instances.

The GREAT thing about renting these cameras V buying one: The guy turns up to drop off the equipment this morning and says " yea, and I had the camera upgraded to the new sensor last week, so you now have twice the resolution to play with at the same frame rates you had last time. Oh, and better light sensitivity." Yeaaaaa haaaa.

That means, come tomorrow I should be able to get the full length of the clear 14" barrel in frame, shooting at 1/500,000th second shutter speeds WITHOUT melting the barrel with the lights :D


But today we were filming the difference between Stock 05/06, Cure, Cure2 and "Future" bolts to see the real difference in how loading fractures can occur. We got some great footage of Ball Clipping with the old stock bolt. Captured it perfectly with the top of the bolt clipping the 2nd ball in the stack, and then this blowing up in the start of the barrel.

This is great fun :) If a little messy....
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#142 cockerpunk

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:22 PM

jack, please post some of this stuff!
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#143 Jack Wood

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:32 PM

I know I know I know.

The plan is to start releasing some of this stuff. I am just fighting an internal battle (similar to Simon) about what we can and can't show. You know me, I would show it all, but then I'm not the brightest when it comes to business and the consequences of providing competitors with useful data and information......

Hopefully there should be no issue with the bolt clipping, as that only goes to reinforce the validity of our claims that this condition does exist, and that the Cure bolt does actually......cure something!! And that I'm not completely full of crap, when I say I designed this bolt because XYZ happens :)

Same for the barrel breaks. That is use-nor-ornament to me, as it is purely down to the paint, not the gun........in my humble opinion ;)
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#144 cockerpunk

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:46 PM

I know I know I know.

The plan is to start releasing some of this stuff. I am just fighting an internal battle (similar to Simon) about what we can and can't show. You know me, I would show it all, but then I'm not the brightest when it comes to business and the consequences of providing competitors with useful data and information......

Hopefully there should be no issue with the bolt clipping, as that only goes to reinforce the validity of our claims that this condition does exist, and that the Cure bolt does actually......cure something!! And that I'm not completely full of crap, when I say I designed this bolt because XYZ happens :)

Same for the barrel breaks. That is use-nor-ornament to me, as it is purely down to the paint, not the gun........in my humble opinion ;)


the trouble is you get into that loop like AGD

AGD - all guns are about the same accuracy!
everyone else - our guns are more accurate then his!

who sells more guns?

telling people they are special becuase of what they buy sells more product.

really though, i spent alot of time thinking about it, and without massively redesigning the loading system in a paintball gun, i dont see a way to get around the fundamental problems we have showed happen.

good to see you blame the paint like i do, but now im thinking its loader+paint more then anything else.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#145 Nick Brockdorff

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:23 PM

I'm curious about something, that some of you more scientificly proficient guys might be able to answer?

In my experience, a great deal of ballbreakage, seems to occur in the bottom of the breach/barrel - without having real data to back this up, it is my experience, that more than half the ballbreakage I have experienced, have left a "snail trail" of paint along the bottom of the barrel, whereas the rest of the barrel (sides and top) are relatively clean.... which I have taken to mean that it is the bottom of the ball that gets broken.

I should point out, that whenever I come across this phenomenon, it seems to be a barrel break, with no paint residue in the actual breach - only from to 1 inch into the barrel and onwards.

My own personal theory (again, with no supporting data - just thinking logically), is that the reason is the ball getting cracked on the bottom of the breach, due to being loaded with too great a force...... but I clearly see the holes in that theory myself (like why the paint residue would only be in the bottom of the barrel, if the ball rotates during exiting the barrel, etc.) - and am unable to come up with a better explanation.

So, are there any bright minds in here, that might be able to explain what is happeing?

Thanks

Nick

#146 brycelarson

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:51 PM

Nick - you might be right on the loading fracture. Just because the ball is fractured by the loading process doesn't mean that it fully fails before the power pulse from the gun.

If the ball is either nicked by the bolt - and damaged on the bottom - or if it's smacked into the bottom of the breech - either may crack the ball w/o allowing any fill out - but then the air hits it and the ball fails and spreads a majority of the fill along the bottom of the barrel.

#147 Troy

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:13 AM

My own personal theory (again, with no supporting data - just thinking logically), is that the reason is the ball getting cracked on the bottom of the breach, due to being loaded with too great a force...... but I clearly see the holes in that theory myself (like why the paint residue would only be in the bottom of the barrel, if the ball rotates during exiting the barrel, etc.) - and am unable to come up with a better explanation.


This is one of the reasons I asked Jack about how balls travel through the barrel. It seemed to him (at the time I posed the question, from a very limited amount of data) that it travels straight down the barrel without much rotation. Maybe now he can comment more conclusively since he's seen more video footage.

Edited by Troy, 10 December 2008 - 09:27 AM.

\m/

#148 Jack Wood

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:26 AM

I can confirm that in an Ego9 and a Geo, we are seeing zero, to say, 15deg in 6in of rotation in the barrel. I would suggest that the breaks Nick is seeing are due to some form of consistent loading fracture that leads to total failure in the barrel. What gun is this in?

We have caught some AWESOME shots today of as close to Pure barrel breaks as we can get. They look fantastic and I think there is a bit of interest for everyone in there. There looks like some shear on the inside of tha barrel, maybe. And some bounce along the vertical axis. And a few other bits and bobs.

We have caught 5-6 so far, and the most interesting thing is that they all start to seperate from the FRONT of the ball. Imagine shooting a water melon with a gun, the front of the ball explodes out ahead of the ball. Very interesting.

I am sure I can show this footage. Just need some time to get it converted and hosted in high enough resolution to make it worth while.

I have the camera for one more day. Any other shots people would like to see?
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#149 brycelarson

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:08 AM

I have the camera for one more day. Any other shots people would like to see?


I would like to see you jumping up and down in joy because you caught such cool stuff on film!

can you film a ball being dropped against a hard object? maybe from different heights - I would love to see it silhouetted against a dark background - I want to see if the ball flexes at all up to the amount of force it takes to break.

#150 cockerpunk

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:39 PM

I have the camera for one more day. Any other shots people would like to see?


I would like to see you jumping up and down in joy because you caught such cool stuff on film!

can you film a ball being dropped against a hard object? maybe from different heights - I would love to see it silhouetted against a dark background - I want to see if the ball flexes at all up to the amount of force it takes to break.


good call!
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."





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