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so what actually cuases barrel breaks?


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#151 Lord Odin

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:40 PM

can you film a ball being dropped against a hard object? maybe from different heights - I would love to see it silhouetted against a dark background - I want to see if the ball flexes at all up to the amount of force it takes to break.


I agree. It sounds like the ball is flexing on a small scale and a drop test would show if it really moves at all without external factors interfering. It would also show if a force applied to one side would cause a split on the opposite side (ie - power pulse from the gun).

#152 Jack Wood

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 05:37 AM

can you film a ball being dropped against a hard object? maybe from different heights - I would love to see it silhouetted against a dark background - I want to see if the ball flexes at all up to the amount of force it takes to break.


I agree. It sounds like the ball is flexing on a small scale and a drop test would show if it really moves at all without external factors interfering. It would also show if a force applied to one side would cause a split on the opposite side (ie - power pulse from the gun).


That is what it looks like. Yesterday we captured probably another 10-12 barrel breaks and they all look like the start to break apart at or near the front of the ball. Interestingly, as the ball breaks apart, the fill also accelerates ahead WAY faster than the shell and detritus down the barrel. Like the fill is pressurized and "sprays" out of the fractures in the front of the ball. Very cool.



And Bryce, that was one of the tests lined up for this morning. The guys wanted it for a nice marketing clip to go into the Etv presentations, but I can get a close-up for you at the same time to see what happens.

And Gordon, remember a while back I mentioned about how an Ego the ball bounces around in the barrel hitting the top and bottom as it acclerates? And How this could possibly effect flight out of the barrel? Well, it sure as hell does!! Even with a tight barrel to ball fit the ball bounces and compresses 3-4 times over the first 6 inches. In an overbored barrel it must go nuts in there!!

Edited by Jack Wood, 11 December 2008 - 05:41 AM.

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#153 Lord Odin

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:28 AM

And Bryce, that was one of the tests lined up for this morning. The guys wanted it for a nice marketing clip to go into the Etv presentations, but I can get a close-up for you at the same time to see what happens.

And Gordon, remember a while back I mentioned about how an Ego the ball bounces around in the barrel hitting the top and bottom as it acclerates? And How this could possibly effect flight out of the barrel? Well, it sure as hell does!! Even with a tight barrel to ball fit the ball bounces and compresses 3-4 times over the first 6 inches. In an overbored barrel it must go nuts in there!!

Oh, it was underbored? I was under the impression from a previous post that it was a paint to barrel match.

If it is underbored and its bouncing around in there, then that would mean that something is making it compress even further during its movement to no longer create a tight seal. Do you think its due to the ball flexing or something else? Perhaps the air is squeezing past the ball at the edges like a wedge and is compressing the ball even further.

#154 brycelarson

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:58 AM

Oh, it was underbored? I was under the impression from a previous post that it was a paint to barrel match.


no, I think he was shooting a "matched" paint.

Jack - can we get verification on the paint and bore sizes involved?

But yeah, if the blow through test allows "bouncing" - then the ball must be compressing - but if the ball is moving laterally - then it's certainly not compressing forward and filling the barrel as I have heard claimed by overboring proponents.

#155 Troy

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 10:02 AM

I think we need to Jack to qualify "tight fit" before we can draw too many conclusions from that piece of data goodness.

If it is air squeezing by making it appear to bounce, then I imagine overboring would help in that instance by allowing air to get past the ball normally. More likely, imo, is the fact that the ball's flight isn't parallel to the barrel right off the bat (if a ball came out straight from a paintball marker, then there wouldn't be much need for barrels now would there?), and as the ball travels down the barrel it the bounces are eventually mitigated.

This may be a good argument for a tighter breech fit, and longer control bore.
\m/

#156 cockerpunk

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 11:02 AM

And Gordon, remember a while back I mentioned about how an Ego the ball bounces around in the barrel hitting the top and bottom as it acclerates? And How this could possibly effect flight out of the barrel? Well, it sure as hell does!! Even with a tight barrel to ball fit the ball bounces and compresses 3-4 times over the first 6 inches. In an overbored barrel it must go nuts in there!!



lets see it "bounce" in an underbore.

actually that's the exact idea behind the egg example i showed everyone. a wildly bouncing paintball has lots of little impact sites and lots more stress put on it. compared to an underbore, which has a nice evenly distributed load.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

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#157 Poe

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:44 PM

Jack,

Is the ball bouncing or are you just seeing surface ripples? Any idea on if or when you'll be able to release any data?

..

My own personal theory (again, with no supporting data - just thinking logically), is that the reason is the ball getting cracked on the bottom of the breach, due to being loaded with too great a force.
..


You might want to check out Simon's Loader Feed Times videos (2:15 to 2:20). He shows a ball getting loaded in 13milliseconds with a fast loader (stock configuration). That's means the ball's final velocity is about 6MPH. To put it another way, it's the same as dropping a ball from a little over a foot.
**Correct me if my math is incorrect but I'm assuming constant acceleration over a distance of 0.68" and only looking at final velocity.
I'm not sure if that's enough to damage paintballs, but I found it helped me get a feel for what kind of forces we're dealing with.

#158 Nick Brockdorff

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 07:33 PM

I can confirm that in an Ego9 and a Geo, we are seeing zero, to say, 15deg in 6in of rotation in the barrel. I would suggest that the breaks Nick is seeing are due to some form of consistent loading fracture that leads to total failure in the barrel. What gun is this in?



Most recently Shocker NXT - but have seen the same in many other guns - so don't think it is a gun issue.

Also, have seen it in various loaders..... and I really don't think this is a "Nick issue" :) - I think WAY more people than one might think, have this exact problem, when they get breaks?!

I have also noticed, that this happens to a greater degree, when a gun has been loaded, but not fired, for a period of time, which to me suggests that the constant force applied to the balls stacked in the feed tube, by a forcefeed loader, is at the root of these kinds of breaks.

I have yet to hear of a loader manufacturer having a clear idea of how much (or little) force is optimum, to avoid getting these kinds of breaks..... Simon did go some way, with the magna kit, but that is still a trial and error thing (from a player perspective) - rather than something seemingly supported by real data (I may be wrong, but at least such data has then not been made public).

I am also wondering, if enough thinking has been put into breech design by gun manufacturers, as it seems to me no one has really yet dealt with ensuring against the ball loaded in the breech rolling back or forward a little... there always seems to be too much "play" in the breech, for a standard size tournament ball (which is weird to me, when at the same time everyone is so concerned with barrel size) - and I also wonder if the loaded ball being off center, and still under pressure from the stack above it (in an open bolt design), has an impact on the stress the ball in the breech is under?

Yes - lot's of questions an no solutions..... but that's what you get with a curious guy, with no enginering background :lol:

Nick

Edited by Nick Brockdorff, 11 December 2008 - 07:35 PM.


#159 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:05 AM

Nick, some companies do hold the ball stack straight. Look at a Geo bolt system or a Cure2 bolt in an Ego.

You do contradict yourself. You say it is not related to the loader, or force on the paint from the loader, and then say that it is worse when the paint has been sat under load for some time in the gun. Surely the second comment only goes to show that it is in fact the loader and pressure on the paint stack that cause the breaks you see?

Anyway:

The fit in this particular test was slightly tighter than blow-through. I wouldn't call it underbored. The paint would often go in 1-2" before getting tight. You would generally have to push the ball out with a squeegy, but 1-in-10 would blow all the way through.

I don't want to give too much away at this point, but this "bounce" we saw was in an Ego.............

Unfortunately I didn't have a Geo with the same window cut in the side to do a comparison. But I have a suspicion that you would not see this effect on a Geo.............

Poe, the ball is bouncing. On the footage we did 2 weeks ago, we caught some rippling. We also caught that this time, prior to a barrel break failure. In the loader, we have not seen a ball that has broken hitting the bottom of the breech. After seeeing about 100+ loading failures, I did not see one single one where the ball cracked in the bottom of the breech. 90-95% of the loading faiures we saw, the ball was cracked IN THE STACK and fell into the breech already cracked. Some were very obvious, some had tiny fractures. The forces exerted on the paint in the stack prior to reaching the breech seem to be greater than this final drop into the bottom of the breech.

Odin, we shot some paint with some talc in the face of the bolt to see if we could determin where the air was going as the ball bounced. As the ball bounces, air does squeeze around the outside of the ball, quite clearly. What I connot tell you conclusively is whether the initial bounce that gets the thing going is due to a mechanical influence or pneumatic (power pulse profile) one. I suppose an undertow bolt in the same gun would tell us that. Gordon didn't send me any drawings so I could get one made :( Definitely need to do it next time.

The ball is definitely compressing as it bounces. You can see it on the inside of the clear barrel quite clearly. As we were looking at it, it was easy to assume that this compression, combined with the shear force element of the contact, was leading to the failure. Is that the case? I can't say. It's easy to convince yourself of that looking at the footage, but then you look again, and maybe the failure occures prior to that, and the impact and shear are just the straw that broke the camels back. Let's see about getting some footage out in the next couple of days.

Bryce, I got the balls bouncing and breaking on a hard surface. Think you'll like them.

Cheers

Jack
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#160 Nick Brockdorff

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:24 AM

Nick, some companies do hold the ball stack straight. Look at a Geo bolt system or a Cure2 bolt in an Ego.

You do contradict yourself. You say it is not related to the loader, or force on the paint from the loader, and then say that it is worse when the paint has been sat under load for some time in the gun. Surely the second comment only goes to show that it is in fact the loader and pressure on the paint stack that cause the breaks you see?


Ah - didn't make myself clear - what I meant by "not loader related" was "not that one specific loader, which might have been broken in some way" :-)

- I have no doubt it is loader related.... and possibly due to the breech... but someone has to test if a "straight stack" can handle more pressure than the bottom ball being off center, before that can be claimed with any degree of certainty.

I have noticed the protusion on the Geo bolt, and think it is a neat idea..... But does the Geo ensure the ball in the breech is alligned with the one on top of it, or just ensure there is no movement once the ball is in the breech - or do you not think that is relevant?

Nick

Edited by Nick Brockdorff, 12 December 2008 - 06:26 AM.


#161 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:49 AM

Nick, some companies do hold the ball stack straight. Look at a Geo bolt system or a Cure2 bolt in an Ego.

You do contradict yourself. You say it is not related to the loader, or force on the paint from the loader, and then say that it is worse when the paint has been sat under load for some time in the gun. Surely the second comment only goes to show that it is in fact the loader and pressure on the paint stack that cause the breaks you see?


Ah - didn't make myself clear - what I meant by "not loader related" was "not that one specific loader, which might have been broken in some way" :-)

- I have no doubt it is loader related.... and possibly due to the breech... but someone has to test if a "straight stack" can handle more pressure than the bottom ball being off center, before that can be claimed with any degree of certainty.

Nick


Did you read the whole of this thread, Nick? We covered a lot of this early on. We have (tried to) classify the different areas that a fracture can occure. Bolt Strike, Bolt Nick, etc etc. The general idea is that loading the ball from the loader to the breech, and then chambering the ball from the breech to the barrel, prior to the power pulse of air hitting the ball to fire it, cause the VAST majority of breaks.

Because you see one specific and repeatable pattern of break in your guns, it should be easy to narrow down what the cause of that loading fracture is. It is dangerous to assume that the manufacturers of the guns do this. Most do not.

And then I pressume by "handle more pressure" you just mean, does a straight stack cause less loading fractures than a stack where the bottom ball is free to move back and forth slightly? Well I can answer that. "It Depends". It depends on the geometrty of the bolt, the position of the ball, the type of bolt mechanism, the acceleration of the bolt, and a host of other factors. Certainly in all our testing, and even more-so with the recent video testing we have done, a straight stack, when relating to trying to shoot very very fragile paint is far down the list of things to get concerned about.
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#162 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:30 AM

First video is uploading to youtube now :)

It is balls dropping on a hard surface.....just for Bryce :)
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#163 Nick Brockdorff

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:34 AM

Nick, some companies do hold the ball stack straight. Look at a Geo bolt system or a Cure2 bolt in an Ego.

You do contradict yourself. You say it is not related to the loader, or force on the paint from the loader, and then say that it is worse when the paint has been sat under load for some time in the gun. Surely the second comment only goes to show that it is in fact the loader and pressure on the paint stack that cause the breaks you see?


Ah - didn't make myself clear - what I meant by "not loader related" was "not that one specific loader, which might have been broken in some way" :-)

- I have no doubt it is loader related.... and possibly due to the breech... but someone has to test if a "straight stack" can handle more pressure than the bottom ball being off center, before that can be claimed with any degree of certainty.

Nick


Did you read the whole of this thread, Nick? We covered a lot of this early on. We have (tried to) classify the different areas that a fracture can occure. Bolt Strike, Bolt Nick, etc etc. The general idea is that loading the ball from the loader to the breech, and then chambering the ball from the breech to the barrel, prior to the power pulse of air hitting the ball to fire it, cause the VAST majority of breaks.

Because you see one specific and repeatable pattern of break in your guns, it should be easy to narrow down what the cause of that loading fracture is. It is dangerous to assume that the manufacturers of the guns do this. Most do not.

And then I pressume by "handle more pressure" you just mean, does a straight stack cause less loading fractures than a stack where the bottom ball is free to move back and forth slightly? Well I can answer that. "It Depends". It depends on the geometrty of the bolt, the position of the ball, the type of bolt mechanism, the acceleration of the bolt, and a host of other factors. Certainly in all our testing, and even more-so with the recent video testing we have done, a straight stack, when relating to trying to shoot very very fragile paint is far down the list of things to get concerned about.


Yeah I did - thanks for qualifying stuff for me - I greatly enjoy this thread - I learn something new all the time.

BTW - we should talk soon - I have some radical ideas on new gun design... that has nothing to do with the interior of the gun, which I obviously know very little about ;-)

#164 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:40 AM

Video Uploaded to my Google Video site. We are waiting for the Youtube vid to be approved , but keep an eye on www.youtube.com/planeteclipseecast where you will be able to view in High Quality.

The best idea for now is to go to Balls Dropped On Hard Surface and cleck the download in the top right. Watch it in quicktime. The image is better, and you can frame advance the video using the left and right arrows.

Please bear in mnd that these uploads have still been scavinged and are less than 50% of the actual image quality that we have here. If only there was a way to host them in all their glory!!

Edited by Jack Wood, 12 December 2008 - 09:42 AM.

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#165 Troy

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:55 AM

Jack we love you!
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#166 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:56 AM

Jack we love you!


You like it?
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#167 Troy

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:02 AM

Jack we love you!


You like it?


I do, its very interesting... BUT the quicktime download didn't work right for me, I'm going to try to re download. I'm getting green screens in the middle of the video (ONE IS RIGHT DURING THE IMPACT!!!!) and strange pixelation issues. But the youtube version looks great. Before digesting it thoroughly, I'll try to get quick time to work.

Edit: I got the same crud again off of that download. Can anyone else reproduce this error? I was surprised to see that the video was only 1MB actually. It looks like the work of a crappy compression algo, probably google's doing.

Edited by Troy, 12 December 2008 - 10:08 AM.

\m/

#168 brycelarson

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:19 AM

looks great - I'll download and dig in a bit later. I'm most interested in the impact of the ball on the right that doesn't break - it certainly seems to deform at the bottom - but only at the small point of impact.

need time to digest - thanks Jack!

oh, and how big are the raw files?

Edited by brycelarson, 12 December 2008 - 10:21 AM.


#169 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:19 AM

Jack we love you!


You like it?


I do, its very interesting... BUT the quicktime download didn't work right for me, I'm going to try to re download. I'm getting green screens in the middle of the video (ONE IS RIGHT DURING THE IMPACT!!!!) and strange pixelation issues. But the youtube version looks great. Before digesting it thoroughly, I'll try to get quick time to work.

Edit: I got the same crud again off of that download. Can anyone else reproduce this error? I was surprised to see that the video was only 1MB actually. It looks like the work of a crappy compression algo, probably google's doing.


To give you some idea, the original clip of the drop, before any intro-outro graphics were added, was 130mb!! When it was edited and compressed to upload to Google/youtube it was a 35mb file!

The High Quality YT verion looks OK, but you can't frame-advance it....boo.....

Edited by Jack Wood, 12 December 2008 - 10:20 AM.

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#170 moyster14

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:20 AM

I downloaded it and its not the greatest quality, but it's not to bad, especially since I can slow it down.

Maybe it's just the high speed footage but the fill looks really thick, like soft gum.

It's interesting that the seam didn't direct much of the cracking as I expected. Except for maybe the first break with the ball with the small dimple, but that could be because of where it landed. It looks likes, depending on the ball, that it starts to break either at the point of impact or further up on the ball as it buckles.

Very cool stuff Jack.

Edit: Never mind, I must have been seeing things before. It just looks like it splits at the point of impact

Edited by moyster14, 12 December 2008 - 10:29 AM.

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#171 Snipez4664

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:39 AM

The breaks almost look to me like a flower blooming - expansion driven at the top more than anything. I'm unsure from the given material if that's indicative of internal pressure causing the failure (transmitted upward through the impact, the shell takes the compressive load but not the tensile one) or just the nature of the cracks propagating. That doesn't make any intuitive sense given my harping on fracture toughness - I hope it's breaking at the point of impact.

Good stuff at any rate. It makes sense to me that you'd see more cracks in the loading stack than anything else - when a gun outruns the hopper the ball that "catches up" to the action with a higher velocity may impact into the top of the bolt or bolt edge, rather than exclusively on the bottom of the breech. I wonder, Jack, if your future bolt is what I think it is, given this insight.

I still have a gut feeling that holding force, no matter how applied, shouldn't be enough to crack balls. Although I have been very wrong before...

Edited by Snipez4664, 12 December 2008 - 10:41 AM.

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#172 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:40 AM

I downloaded it and its not the greatest quality, but it's not to bad, especially since I can slow it down.

Maybe it's just the high speed footage but the fill looks really thick, like soft gum.

It's interesting that the seam didn't direct much of the cracking as I expected. Except for maybe the first break with the ball with the small dimple, but that could be because of where it landed. It looks likes, depending on the ball, that it starts to break either at the point of impact or further up on the ball as it buckles.

Very cool stuff Jack.

Edit: Never mind, I must have been seeing things before. It just looks like it splits at the point of impact


This is normal DXS Silver that has been stored at around 5C. It looks thick, but it isn't. Just a factor of the close-up and High Speed. Some of the other shots we have are even more bizaar looking when slowed down. This is actually shot quite fast, compared to the barrel shots. This is at 6000fps and 1/30000th second shutter speed. For the barrel breaks we were shooting at 40000fps and 1/350000th second shutter speed.
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#173 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:48 AM

Ryan, I would hate to presume what you think ;) But I am sure you have come up with something far more creative in your brain than I have in reality :)

And I agree, the holding force should never be enough to crack a ball. There is a complex interaction between the balls in the stack during the cycle that is not repeatable or consistent. At least not that we can see. Some of the other breech footage would be more applicable to that conversation. Some of which, will be up maybe later next week. But, to clarify, appart from bolt clipping, all the fractures in the feed tube are created above ball 2 in the stack, not from a ball landing on top of the bolt..........if that answers a bit of your question?
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#174 moyster14

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:49 AM

This is normal DXS Silver that has been stored at around 5C. It looks thick, but it isn't. Just a factor of the close-up and High Speed. Some of the other shots we have are even more bizaar looking when slowed down. This is actually shot quite fast, compared to the barrel shots. This is at 6000fps and 1/30000th second shutter speed. For the barrel breaks we were shooting at 40000fps and 1/350000th second shutter speed.


Yeah, I kinda had that feeling. So you chilled the paint before dropping or did you mean 25C?
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#175 Troy

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:04 AM

To give you some idea, the original clip of the drop, before any intro-outro graphics were added, was 130mb!! When it was edited and compressed to upload to Google/youtube it was a 35mb file!

The High Quality YT verion looks OK, but you can't frame-advance it....boo.....


You need to check out H.264 video encoding... seriously, we are rolling out some huge videos that look beautiful (you can't see them yet on any of my sites) at a really low bitrate. It's freakin AMAZING.
\m/

#176 moyster14

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:04 AM

Ryan, I would hate to presume what you think ;) But I am sure you have come up with something far more creative in your brain than I have in reality :)

And I agree, the holding force should never be enough to crack a ball. There is a complex interaction between the balls in the stack during the cycle that is not repeatable or consistent. At least not that we can see. Some of the other breech footage would be more applicable to that conversation. Some of which, will be up maybe later next week. But, to clarify, appart from bolt clipping, all the fractures in the feed tube are created above ball 2 in the stack, not from a ball landing on top of the bolt..........if that answers a bit of your question?


You know, now that I think about it have the balls crack further up in the stack almost makes sense. If the stack is staggered there would be more of a shear type force on the balls not in contact with the bolt. Maybe shear isn't the right word though.
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#177 Snipez4664

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:14 AM

I suspect you mean lateral impact with the walls rather than a shear force, which would be rubbing on the feed tube walls, but then again this might be exactly what you mean.

Interesting as hell about the stack, Jack. The nature of the failures certainly still suggests impact to me, rather than shear, which I would expect to go catastrophic when it happened. I feel like the action of the stack shouldn't be that destructive - Failures that high up suggest pure loader action, to me. Certainly the catch cup -> raceway can make a somewhat violent transition.
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#178 moyster14

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:20 AM

Kind of. Depending on the severity of the stagger, I'm wondering if the balls are trying to wedge themselves between the feed tube wall and the next lowest paintball. Not because of the holding force though, but rather during the impact when the next ball hits the bottom of the breech.
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#179 Snipez4664

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:25 AM

Kind of. Depending on the severity of the stagger, I'm wondering if the balls are trying to wedge themselves between the feed tube wall and the next lowest paintball. Not because of the holding force though, but rather during the impact when the next ball hits the bottom of the breech.


If someone wants to measure a feed tube diameter, it's trivial to use trig to figure out the vectors involved here.

Edited by Snipez4664, 12 December 2008 - 11:25 AM.

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#180 moyster14

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 12:09 PM

Here's an image of what I think maybe going on in the feed tube. It is very exaggerated. The arrow is the resultant force that I'm imagining and the red circles are the area's of concern where the "shear" maybe occurring.

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This image better be here.

Edited by moyster14, 12 December 2008 - 12:10 PM.

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#181 Lord Odin

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 12:25 PM

Jack, do you see any similarities between what we saw in the drop video versus what you saw in the barrel?

To me, it looked like the balls flexed a little bit but it just depended on the ball. The shell kind of reminds me of a pencil. It has a little bit of flex to it but after a certain point, it just cracks. The balls that broke looked like they bent too much around the impact point for the shell to maintain its integrity.

#182 cockerpunk

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 01:48 PM

defiantly a buckling situation in terms of the role of failure. that makes perfect sense becuase typically a compressive test leads to buckling, or barreling of the part (anyone familiar with forging should understand the term barreling). very cool, thanks a bunch!

my thoughts are that a combination of the smaller volume of a ellipsoid and larger demands for surface area over a close to sphere its what causes the buckling to be catastrophic. meaning, the fill is being compressed by the shell, and the fill is just not very compressible, at the same time as that, the shell is going though an elongation of plastic deformation all around it, making it weaker.

eventually, you will either see a crack form and propagate due to either the shell being stressed laterally, or the internal pressure blowing out the back of the ball. probably a combination of both.

this leads me to think that shear forces on paintballs just are not a large factor in terms of failure of the ball. which makes sense becuase a sphere when presented with a shear force along its edge will tend to roll rather then shear. we also have cooberating evidence that shear doen't play a large part from the underboreing barrel break tests, and experince.

interesting ...
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#183 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:33 PM

Odin, it's hard to say. If I dropped 100 balls, you would see the start and propagation of the cracks/failure 100 different ways. The same with the barrel break. The only thin with the barrel breaks was that the paint always expelled forwards of the ball/shell.

Gordon, I would like you to see the barrel vids before you rule out the shear force idea. I too was very very skeptical that shear forces inside the barrel could be contributory at any level. But after yesterday, and viewing some of the vids again, I am not so sure. Don't forget that if the ball is bouncing, you are getting very localized and specific shear forces. Not like the underbore testing you did where I would expect it to be more uniform around the ball.

But what do you think of the quality? Pretty good, isn't it? Even on these crappy downloads. Knocks the socks off all the other captures you have seen before! Just wait til you see some of the barrel and breech stuff :)

Edited by Jack Wood, 12 December 2008 - 02:34 PM.

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#184 Poe

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:52 PM

Jack,

Were the balls in the video new or old? I only ask because one looks like it has a dimple. Additionally what height were they dropped from and what surface (smooth/rough) were they dropped onto?

Were the balls that bounced in the barrel the same type and quality as the ones in the ball drop test?

I suppose balls stacked in the feed tube are experiencing more pressure then those resting at the bottom of a cupped breech... since force is the same but surface area is different. Were you able to see the cracks begin in the stack or could they have been there during or prior to loading?

Of the balls that cracked in the feed neck, where did the crack start?

Just out of curiosity what was the daily rate for that camera?

Amazing quality ....even if down-sampled. We all look forward to more videos. Thank you.

Gordon,

What were your comments in reference to? The ball drop or ball barrel bounce? If they are in reference to the ball drop then I think I understand what you are saying. As the ball decelerates the fill's inertia causes catastrophic tensile stress on the shell.

Other then bolt clip, nick or chop I can't imagine any shear stresses. Do you mean tensile stress caused by ball to barrel friction?

#185 moyster14

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 03:15 PM

But what do you think of the quality? Pretty good, isn't it? Even on these crappy downloads. Knocks the socks off all the other captures you have seen before! Just wait til you see some of the barrel and breech stuff :)


Honestly, I was pretty stoked just because it was in color. Not bad Jack, not bad. Can't wait to see the rest.
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#186 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:03 PM

Poe, the paint was fresh (or as fresh as we get all the way over here) DXS Silver, but we asked them for the most fragile (see: unsalable) paint they had for these test. We had to have paint that would fail easily, or we could have spent 2 hours just trying to get one instance of ball break, and then miss it!!. The paint had to be fragile enough to break consistently. It has been stored in close to zero degrees centigrade conditions for the last 2 weeks, hence the dimples. The only way we could get consistant breaks was to keep it chilled down. We were lucky that we have an unheated wharehouse that has been just above freezing for the last 2 weeks. We did the filming in there. As soon as we started to warm the paint, the incidence of failure went down to 1 in every 500 rounds. With the chilled, sable paint, we could get as many as 4-5 breaks per loader.

I now have a very bad cold! Oh the sacrifices we make...................sob sob.............

And yes, the paint we used in all our tests was the same. We did have some RPS Marbs that was too fragile to get through any loader, so we never shot any meaningful footage this time with it. We used it last time, when it was slightly warmer.

On our breech shots you can see all the ball in the breech, and the centre vertical strip of about 10mm wide and the full length of the second ball. You could often see the cracks in the second ball as it arrived in that position, meaning it was brocken in position 3 or above in the stack (Pos1 = Breech, Pos2 = 2nd ball in stack, Pos3 = 3rd ball in stack etc)
The great thing for us was that by the end, we had a set-up that would shoot this paint, loader after loader, with zero breaks :) And yes, the major change in the set-up was with the loader :)

For this shot, I was using a red paving brick I found out in the road. It was sat on a jig that we had been using to mount the guns so that it was in front of the camera lens. This rig was about 4 1/2 foot off the floor. I had to get up on a chair and drop the paint onto it. I could only get about 4 feet above the brick to drop the balls. after a couple of attempts just dropping the balls, the results were not spectacular. So in the end I "launched" them down, gently, towards the brick for this shot and a couple more. The results look the same or very very similar to the dropped balls, but I just got more to break in shot.

Normal daily rate with operator is around $1.5k for this type of camera. We did get a deal this week because we did the operating ourselves, and we took it for 3 days, and it is close to Xmas :)
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#187 cockerpunk

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:32 PM

great work!

yes, my comments were in regards to the balls dropped on the ground.

i think the comparison to barreling of your part when forging is a great model to look at that type of failure.

heres a video on forging and the first thing it shows is a barreling part - http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

you can see even in that case, the outside is stressed (and cooled) to the point where it just sheds right of the sides, with cracks propagating with the axis of the load applied, just like paintballs.
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#188 Poe

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:40 PM

Jack,

Thanks a tonne for all the info.

$1.5k per day is pretty salty. Glad to hear it was fruitful. :)

#189 brycelarson

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:48 PM

$1.5k US dollars or Pounds?

either way - thanks man, hope the research serves you well. It's good to know that someone at a manufacturer is actually doing something to advance their products other than advertising. :)

#190 Poe

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 05:09 PM

great work!

yes, my comments were in regards to the balls dropped on the ground.

i think the comparison to barreling of your part when forging is a great model to look at that type of failure.

heres a video on forging and the first thing it shows is a barreling part - http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

you can see even in that case, the outside is stressed (and cooled) to the point where it just sheds right of the sides, with cracks propagating with the axis of the load applied, just like paintballs.


Apologies for the double post.

That model might not apply since it involves a two point, fixed area, compression force. The slag in that video was falling off because of how the metal was poured and handled prior to entering the forge. Since a paintball is liquid on the inside and that ingot was still solid maybe a better model would be a water balloon dropping?

Regarding the balls dropping.. Bricks have rough surfaces at this scale and I'm concerned the balls might have broken primarily due to small punctures at the impact site.

Jack,

Were you able to get any 'true barrel breaks' on film? By that I mean balls that broke in the barrel that were not damaged prior.

Thanks again.

#191 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 05:15 PM

$1.5k US dollars or Pounds?

either way - thanks man, hope the research serves you well. It's good to know that someone at a manufacturer is actually doing something to advance their products other than advertising. :)


To advance our products? Don't be stupid, we did it all for you guys ;) Sorry, I mean, we did it all to make cool footage for marketing videos........no, no I mean.....yes, to make dem gunz better, right.............


;)



PS. I converted to Dollars for you Yanks :)
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#192 Jack Wood

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 05:18 PM

Poe, as said before, as close as we could possibly get with the time constraints to Pure, yes. They was definitely no visible fracture in the ball prior to firing. That is not to say the ball may not be "weakened" in some way by the loading cycle, but they were definitely "whole" at the time the power pulse hits them and through the first 1-2" of travel.
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#193 cockerpunk

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 05:27 PM

great work!

yes, my comments were in regards to the balls dropped on the ground.

i think the comparison to barreling of your part when forging is a great model to look at that type of failure.

heres a video on forging and the first thing it shows is a barreling part - http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

you can see even in that case, the outside is stressed (and cooled) to the point where it just sheds right of the sides, with cracks propagating with the axis of the load applied, just like paintballs.


Apologies for the double post.

That model might not apply since it involves a two point, fixed area, compression force. The slag in that video was falling off because of how the metal was poured and handled prior to entering the forge. Since a paintball is liquid on the inside and that ingot was still solid maybe a better model would be a water balloon dropping?

Regarding the balls dropping.. Bricks have rough surfaces at this scale and I'm concerned the balls might have broken primarily due to small punctures at the impact site.

Jack,

Were you able to get any 'true barrel breaks' on film? By that I mean balls that broke in the barrel that were not damaged prior.

Thanks again.


a water ballon or tennis ball impact is a great model - but do you have the math that models it? im looking for something i can crunch some numbers on. if only for a quick approximation.

actually, the scaling you see is from cooling pre-hardening the outsides, which in tern makes the stronger (and more brittle), much like a paintball's shell. so when the still amouphus (due to higher temp) center begins to get shorter, and push out the outsides, it breaks the hardned shell off.

if the press continued its forge, you would see another scaling, and then probably another one (as long as the press could push that hard).

Edited by cockerpunk, 12 December 2008 - 05:28 PM.

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#194 Lord Odin

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:53 PM

Odin, it's hard to say. If I dropped 100 balls, you would see the start and propagation of the cracks/failure 100 different ways. The same with the barrel break. The only thin with the barrel breaks was that the paint always expelled forwards of the ball/shell.

From the few that we did see break in the video, it seemed like they all broke closest to the side of impact, which is opposite of what you saw in the barrel breaks. Or at the very least, the breaks were random. Do you think this might be due to the balls being struck at a single point rather than the hemisphere like with a power pulse? I would think the force would be spread out further and would push in on the ball from all sides from the air. Perhaps that's whats causing the barrel breaks to blow out the other side.

I don't know if you still have the camera setup or not (doesn't sound like it) but it would be interesting to see a power pulse blast a paintball in open air. Delicately hold a ball in the air at two points (pencil eraser heads?) and a bolt directly behind it at point blank range. Just to see the effect of the blast on a ball without a barrel interfering.

Or maybe even place a ball in a short barrel that holds it in place similarly but the barrel stops before the length of the ball, so that it is just enough to hold it in place. I don't know if the first test would put pressure on the ball or if it would escape in all directions and not affect the ball at all. This might do a better job.

On a side note, the dropped ball looks very similar to what this tennis ball is doing.

http://livephoto.rit...sBallBounce.mov

Edited by Lord Odin, 12 December 2008 - 06:57 PM.


#195 Jack Wood

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:06 PM

If you just fire an open bolt gun without a barrel, you get the effect you are talking about. The bolt pushes the ball forwad and fires it in free space. No we didn't do this. But when we saw the breaks in the barrel, the ball didn't break until 1-3 inches down the barrel, so by that point, the pressure was most definitely uniform, or close, across the surface. We never saw a pure break that initiated at the instant that the power pulse hit it....

In fact, thinking about it, that has to be a key point. There MUST be some other contributary factor to the failure of the ball in a Pure barrel break other than the power pulse, otherwise in a pure barrel break that was ONLY due to pressure of the power pulse acting on the ball, the ball would surely start to fail at the instance the power pulse hit it. No? When the ball is stationary (ok, it may be moving slightly due to it being pushed forward by the bolt, but nothing compared to what it will be doing in a few microseconds time), and the pulse hits the ball, that will be when peak pressure would be reached. This should the moment that the ball sees its highest forces. If the power pulse alone were to be the cause of failure, would it not start to fail right there?

Mmmm, interesting.
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#196 cockerpunk

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:19 PM

If you just fire an open bolt gun without a barrel, you get the effect you are talking about. The bolt pushes the ball forwad and fires it in free space. No we didn't do this. But when we saw the breaks in the barrel, the ball didn't break until 1-3 inches down the barrel, so by that point, the pressure was most definitely uniform, or close, across the surface. We never saw a pure break that initiated at the instant that the power pulse hit it....

In fact, thinking about it, that has to be a key point. There MUST be some other contributary factor to the failure of the ball in a Pure barrel break other than the power pulse, otherwise in a pure barrel break that was ONLY due to pressure of the power pulse acting on the ball, the ball would surely start to fail at the instance the power pulse hit it. No? When the ball is stationary (ok, it may be moving slightly due to it being pushed forward by the bolt, but nothing compared to what it will be doing in a few microseconds time), and the pulse hits the ball, that will be when peak pressure would be reached. This should the moment that the ball sees its highest forces. If the power pulse alone were to be the cause of failure, would it not start to fail right there?

Mmmm, interesting.


interesting because we never saw a mid barrel barrel break in our test, with any barrel.

leading one to conclude that whatever was causing our barrels breaks (probably loading issues), was not factor X.
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#197 brycelarson

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:21 PM

If you just fire an open bolt gun without a barrel, you get the effect you are talking about. The bolt pushes the ball forwad and fires it in free space. No we didn't do this. But when we saw the breaks in the barrel, the ball didn't break until 1-3 inches down the barrel, so by that point, the pressure was most definitely uniform, or close, across the surface. We never saw a pure break that initiated at the instant that the power pulse hit it....

In fact, thinking about it, that has to be a key point. There MUST be some other contributary factor to the failure of the ball in a Pure barrel break other than the power pulse, otherwise in a pure barrel break that was ONLY due to pressure of the power pulse acting on the ball, the ball would surely start to fail at the instance the power pulse hit it. No? When the ball is stationary (ok, it may be moving slightly due to it being pushed forward by the bolt, but nothing compared to what it will be doing in a few microseconds time), and the pulse hits the ball, that will be when peak pressure would be reached. This should the moment that the ball sees its highest forces. If the power pulse alone were to be the cause of failure, would it not start to fail right there?

Mmmm, interesting.


in a situation where the ball isn't snug in the barrel - that could be the first location of impact on it's path "bouncing" down the barrel - or it could be shear forces.

#198 Jack Wood

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:11 PM

I am sure you both said the breaks were in the first 1-2 inches? Are you thinking now that all the breaks you saw in your tests were actually loading fracture breaks and not pure breaks?

I am thinking along the lines of Bryce here. These were fragile balls. If they were not broken due to loading fracture, and they made it to the barrel in one piece, the next mode of failure was not "just" the power pulse. "If" we could get rid of the bouce and concentrated shear, then you would surely see less breaks, and then the next mode of failure would have to be the power pulse on its own.

What we need to do is remove the bounce issue, if at all possible, and see if that further reduces pure breaks in the barrel. At that point I imaging we would need even more fragile paint to try and see breaks caused by power pulse alone. A type of failure that I believe we didn't see in over 6000 fired rounds.
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#199 Lord Odin

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 07:23 PM

I wonder how big of a factor temperature is in your tests. Between your testing and the Chilled/Freezing Data thread, it's probably safe to say that colder paintballs are more brittle. So they should break sooner rather than a few inches into the barrel. It seems though that the opposite is happening. I wonder if the colder shells are allowing the balls to slide rather than grip the sides of the barrel and the impact alone is what is causing the failure. I don't know if temperature affects its friction level or if that is even happening. It could be something else entirely.

I think you're right, Jack. An underbore and overbore test is needed to help remove the bouncing variable. It would also serve as a comparison for temperature between your test and CP/Bryce's, since their test barrel break test was done in optimal conditions. Fortunately for you, the more brittle balls should make for getting breaks a lot easier and a lot less rounds.

CP and Bryce, in your barrel break test, did the bore size affect where the ball broke in the barrel? Or were they always similar?

Edited by Lord Odin, 13 December 2008 - 07:24 PM.


#200 cockerpunk

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:17 PM

CP and Bryce, in your barrel break test, did the bore size affect where the ball broke in the barrel? Or were they always similar?


thats what i was saying before, in all our bores we got the breaks right at the breach of the barrel.
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