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so what actually cuases barrel breaks?


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#201 Poe

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:48 PM

...
I don't want to give too much away at this point, but this "bounce" we saw was in an Ego.............

Unfortunately I didn't have a Geo with the same window cut in the side to do a comparison. But I have a suspicion that you would not see this effect on a Geo.............
...


...
"If" we could get rid of the bouce and concentrated shear, then you would surely see less breaks, and then the next mode of failure would have to be the power pulse on its own.

What we need to do is remove the bounce issue, if at all possible, and see if that further reduces pure breaks in the barrel.
...


You eluded to a theory on why they start bouncing and I hate to put you on the spot, but is there any chance you could elaborate or post video of the chambering action? ...or if someone could point me to a site with Geo/Ego differences...?

The only thing I could think of is the way the air is expelled, breech diameter or slack between detent and bolt.

#202 Jack Wood

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 06:18 AM

CP and Bryce, in your barrel break test, did the bore size affect where the ball broke in the barrel? Or were they always similar?


thats what i was saying before, in all our bores we got the breaks right at the breach of the barrel.


That would definitely suggest loading fracture as the cause of break from everything that I have seen so far.

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#203 Jack Wood

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 07:14 AM

...
I don't want to give too much away at this point, but this "bounce" we saw was in an Ego.............

Unfortunately I didn't have a Geo with the same window cut in the side to do a comparison. But I have a suspicion that you would not see this effect on a Geo.............
...


...
"If" we could get rid of the bouce and concentrated shear, then you would surely see less breaks, and then the next mode of failure would have to be the power pulse on its own.

What we need to do is remove the bounce issue, if at all possible, and see if that further reduces pure breaks in the barrel.
...


You eluded to a theory on why they start bouncing and I hate to put you on the spot, but is there any chance you could elaborate or post video of the chambering action? ...or if someone could point me to a site with Geo/Ego differences...?

The only thing I could think of is the way the air is expelled, breech diameter or slack between detent and bolt.


Poe, there are other factors that effect the initial condition/position of the ball at time zero. We have more work to do on this to determin "exactly" what causes this condition, but we have a good idea. Detent has nothing to do with it. This is purely what is happening at the millisecond before and after the power pulse strikes the ball.

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#204 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 09:56 AM

CP and Bryce, in your barrel break test, did the bore size affect where the ball broke in the barrel? Or were they always similar?


thats what i was saying before, in all our bores we got the breaks right at the breach of the barrel.


That would definitely suggest loading fracture as the cause of break from everything that I have seen so far.

Jack


yup that was my conclusion as well.
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#205 Jack Wood

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:59 AM

CP and Bryce, in your barrel break test, did the bore size affect where the ball broke in the barrel? Or were they always similar?


thats what i was saying before, in all our bores we got the breaks right at the breach of the barrel.


That would definitely suggest loading fracture as the cause of break from everything that I have seen so far.

Jack


yup that was my conclusion as well.


So, if that is the case, what are your revised conclusions of the test? If all the breaks you had were loading fracture failures, what does that mean to the underbore/overbore/matched arguments? You would have to say that if all breaks were loading fractures, all you proved was underboring, overboring and matching all yield the same results as far as Pure barrel breaks per number of shots fired. Would you not?
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#206 Jack Wood

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:01 AM

Hoping for another clip up today of a loading failure. Certainly one of the more severe failures, and certainly not just a nick or a clip. But very interesting, non-the-less.

I am sorry if it is not what you want to see, but we are still evaluating the more contentious and interesting stuff.

Keep an eye on Youtube and my google vids location later.

Troy, I mentioned the H264 compression, and the guys said it is nothing to do with our compression, it is purely what Youtube and Google do in their compression of the file that we upload. It is their shoddy codec, not ours. Our files are very lightly compressed, but TY and google just ream it out after we upload it.

Anyone know any other sites where we could host these large files for download? Gordon, do you want to talk to Mike and see if he is interested in hosting them for us? If he gives me a place to upload them, that would be sweet. They are going to be around 30-100Mb each one.

Edited by Jack Wood, 15 December 2008 - 11:06 AM.

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#207 brycelarson

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:48 AM

So, if that is the case, what are your revised conclusions of the test? If all the breaks you had were loading fracture failures, what does that mean to the underbore/overbore/matched arguments? You would have to say that if all breaks were loading fractures, all you proved was underboring, overboring and matching all yield the same results as far as Pure barrel breaks per number of shots fired. Would you not?


My conclusion from the barrel break test all along is that there is no statistically dignificant difference in barrel breaks going from .006 overbore to .008 underbore. Since I do have data showing that there is good reason to undrebore - and the only reason that I've heard for overboring (fewer breaks) seems to be false - then I choose to underbore. So, no, this doesn't cause me to revise my conclusions - in fact, it backs them up.

Deciding that neither under nor overbore barrels have a likely pure barrel break in 3k+ shots each means to me that bore size has very little, if anything to do with barrel breaks. Therefore I will choose barrels based on different criteria - efficiency (underbore wins), consistancy (underbore wins) and accuracy (test upcoming).

Now, why did we have breaks? I think it's the loader.

#208 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 12:51 PM

CP and Bryce, in your barrel break test, did the bore size affect where the ball broke in the barrel? Or were they always similar?


thats what i was saying before, in all our bores we got the breaks right at the breach of the barrel.


That would definitely suggest loading fracture as the cause of break from everything that I have seen so far.

Jack


yup that was my conclusion as well.


So, if that is the case, what are your revised conclusions of the test? If all the breaks you had were loading fracture failures, what does that mean to the underbore/overbore/matched arguments? You would have to say that if all breaks were loading fractures, all you proved was underboring, overboring and matching all yield the same results as far as Pure barrel breaks per number of shots fired. Would you not?


if loading failures are so much more common then pure barrel breaks - to the level where i can shoot 10,000 rounds without one, then what does it matter? esp when 3,000 of those round were though a pretty hefty underbore, with very brittle paint.

what the test shows is that there isn't a large correlation [edited by bryce] between bore size and breaks. overboring wont measurable prevent barrel breaks, probably because [edited by bryce] most barrel breaks are not caused by the barrel itself.

Im with bryce, the loading fracture theory fully supports the results we got in our testing, almost too [edited by bryce] well. the test we did really just showed that the current model we were using (that bore size is the largest factor) was simply wrong. now we have a theory that makes a lot more sense, and matches with a far larger variety of the evidence presented.

ill toss a phone call mikes way right now about uploading space.

Edited by brycelarson, 15 December 2008 - 01:00 PM.

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#209 Lord Odin

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 01:13 PM

Hoping for another clip up today of a loading failure. Certainly one of the more severe failures, and certainly not just a nick or a clip. But very interesting, non-the-less.

I am sorry if it is not what you want to see, but we are still evaluating the more contentious and interesting stuff.

Keep an eye on Youtube and my google vids location later.

Troy, I mentioned the H264 compression, and the guys said it is nothing to do with our compression, it is purely what Youtube and Google do in their compression of the file that we upload. It is their shoddy codec, not ours. Our files are very lightly compressed, but TY and google just ream it out after we upload it.

Anyone know any other sites where we could host these large files for download? Gordon, do you want to talk to Mike and see if he is interested in hosting them for us? If he gives me a place to upload them, that would be sweet. They are going to be around 30-100Mb each one.

I don't have any personal experience with it but you can try Mediafire for free file hosting.

Edited by Lord Odin, 15 December 2008 - 01:13 PM.


#210 Troy

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 03:42 PM

Anyone know any other sites where we could host these large files for download? Gordon, do you want to talk to Mike and see if he is interested in hosting them for us? If he gives me a place to upload them, that would be sweet. They are going to be around 30-100Mb each one.

If Willie/Mike/Anyone from TechPb wants me to tell them how to get all set up to do it himself with an investment of less then $100 and about 10 mins I'd be happy to.

If asked real nice, I may be able to convince my business partner to let me do it on one of our servers... but he's had some bad experience with hosting stuff in the past so I'd have to sweet talk him a bit.

I think it would be a better solution overall if TechPb just started hosting their own videos at a much better quality then youtube or google did. The new H264 compression allows for some INCREDIBLE videos at fairly tame bit rates. Definitely something to look into.

I think I'll pm Willie about it actually...
\m/

#211 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 03:57 PM

willie is your best bet for sure. i liked the youtube videos.

one of my friend who hates techpb messaged me on aim with the link.

i got to rub it in his face - lol.
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#212 italian mobster

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 04:40 PM

wow lol this is an in depth conversation
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#213 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:19 AM

So, we are setting up a "Learning Channel" on Planet Eclipse Youtube site. As well as slo mo stuff it will have educational stuff for users to do with our guns, like maintenance, break-down, settings, etc.

The location is www.youtube.com/planeteclipsetv

We are going to put the Slow Mo stuff here for now, and hopefully on my google videos site so that you can download it for other players.

Here is the latest one: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=j9WJoWtjAeA

Notice how the broken ball levitates in the feed? Why?
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#214 moyster14

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:02 PM

Notice how the broken ball levitates in the feed? Why?


With the ball being cracked in the feed tube, I could see the ball hanging up a little, but you would think the loader should power through it. Which loader are you using?

Hmmmm....
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#215 Snipez4664

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:09 PM

So, we are setting up a "Learning Channel" on Planet Eclipse Youtube site. As well as slo mo stuff it will have educational stuff for users to do with our guns, like maintenance, break-down, settings, etc.

The location is www.youtube.com/planeteclipsetv

We are going to put the Slow Mo stuff here for now, and hopefully on my google videos site so that you can download it for other players.

Here is the latest one: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=j9WJoWtjAeA

Notice how the broken ball levitates in the feed? Why?


It actually begins to move down, stops, reverses, then feeds in tandem with the other ball that breaks. It looks to me like those balls were already in interference in the stack - the levitation would be a function of their interaction rather than feed tube interaction or blowback, which are the other possibilities.

the question is - is the jostling in the stack causing the failure, or the loader paddles. The self-replenishing-spring-loaded-clip design has taken the industry a long way, but these types of failures could indicate the problems that can arise when a large force is placed on an inconsistent stack.
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#216 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:34 PM

I can't see how it can be blowback. Have you seen the size of the vent we gave that body!!

This was shot with a Rotor, or a Halo with magna board. I would have to check the data sheets to confirm, and I am at home at the mo. After all our testing there was no sign of any paint inside either hopper or cone, suggesting that it was not broken on the paddles in the loader, but more likely in the stack.
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#217 Troy

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:34 PM

I'm wondering if the balls are forming a temporary wedge in the feedneck. One ball is pushed up, which pushes the ball in exactly the right angle to wedge it in between the feedneck and the next ball temporarily, then the force of the loader overcomes the wedged ball.

So Jack, when are you going to make a feedneck out of lexan?
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#218 brycelarson

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:36 PM

Notice how the broken ball levitates in the feed? Why?


what was the ROF on that vid? Maybe it's due to odd air flow created by the ball leaving the barrel - combined with the missing side of the breech. can you grab the gun and do the balled up kleenex in the feed neck test for blow-back or suction?

edit:
other people posted while I was watching the vid again... crtainly looks like it was stuck to the ball above it. But the blowback may look like that as well

Edited by brycelarson, 16 December 2008 - 12:38 PM.


#219 Poe

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:48 PM

I'm wondering if the balls are forming a temporary wedge in the feedneck. One ball is pushed up, which pushes the ball in exactly the right angle to wedge it in between the feedneck and the next ball temporarily, then the force of the loader overcomes the wedged ball.

So Jack, when are you going to make a feedneck out of lexan?


My thoughts exactly... although I was thinking the bolt induced spin might also contribute somewhat.

Edit: Actually now that I look at it... It looks like the second ball is getting heavily rotated against the side of the feed neck. During this time the third ball (first broken ball) is where the bottom edge of the hopper is located. :unsure: Does that look right?

Edited by Poe, 16 December 2008 - 12:56 PM.


#220 brycelarson

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 01:40 PM

ok, I wateched it again - it was so simple we all looked past it. The ball that hovers is the broken ball - which means that when it broke it prob stuck to the ball above.

why the loader doesn't shove it down - I don't know, I don't know how this particular loader detects that it needs to feed.

#221 Snipez4664

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 01:53 PM

ok, I wateched it again - it was so simple we all looked past it. The ball that hovers is the broken ball - which means that when it broke it prob stuck to the ball above.

why the loader doesn't shove it down - I don't know, I don't know how this particular loader detects that it needs to feed.


What? That is what I mean when I said the balls are in interference - their diameters are overlapping. I can see how my phrasing is confusing, though.

I agree there's no blowback in this case, obviously, those are just the general factors that could cause the observed pattern of motion. Give me a little credit here, Jack! :wub:
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#222 Poe

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 02:10 PM

ok, I wateched it again - it was so simple we all looked past it. The ball that hovers is the broken ball - which means that when it broke it prob stuck to the ball above.

why the loader doesn't shove it down - I don't know, I don't know how this particular loader detects that it needs to feed.


Even if balls three and four were glued together they should fall with ball two ....unless they were stuck to something like the sidewall.

Slow motion videos make it difficult to imagine if a little paint would be enough to cause that kind of 'stickyness'.

#223 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:21 PM

But regardless of how "stuck" the 2 balls are together (I am going to call the overlapping, broken balls, Ball3 and Ball4) why would ball3 start to fall down the feed, then hover, and then go back up the feed, before coming down? It looks quite central, it doesn't look jammed against the feedtube wall.

Yes we need an acrylic feedtube next.

But that body is pretty cool, isn't it? You can see right into the barrel at the firing-point. You see the ball the way into the barrel, and then the initial acceleration as it leaves the bolt face. We did this after the first session, when we realised we needed to see the initial phase of the ball acceleration.

Ryan, I thought it was a strange comment from you. I had teasingly thought "I bet someone says "it must be blowback!!"" and was ready with a rebuttal, but I hadn't expected it from you. Glad to see you're not slipping ;)
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#224 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:44 PM

But regardless of how "stuck" the 2 balls are together (I am going to call the overlapping, broken balls, Ball3 and Ball4) why would ball3 start to fall down the feed, then hover, and then go back up the feed, before coming down? It looks quite central, it doesn't look jammed against the feedtube wall.

Yes we need an acrylic feedtube next.

But that body is pretty cool, isn't it? You can see right into the barrel at the firing-point. You see the ball the way into the barrel, and then the initial acceleration as it leaves the bolt face. We did this after the first session, when we realised we needed to see the initial phase of the ball acceleration.

Ryan, I thought it was a strange comment from you. I had teasingly thought "I bet someone says "it must be blowback!!"" and was ready with a rebuttal, but I hadn't expected it from you. Glad to see you're not slipping ;)


the most interesting thing i noticed was how much bouncing around that ball does in the breach. that sucker is all over the place!
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#225 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:45 PM

But regardless of how "stuck" the 2 balls are together (I am going to call the overlapping, broken balls, Ball3 and Ball4) why would ball3 start to fall down the feed, then hover, and then go back up the feed, before coming down? It looks quite central, it doesn't look jammed against the feedtube wall.

Yes we need an acrylic feedtube next.

But that body is pretty cool, isn't it? You can see right into the barrel at the firing-point. You see the ball the way into the barrel, and then the initial acceleration as it leaves the bolt face. We did this after the first session, when we realised we needed to see the initial phase of the ball acceleration.

Ryan, I thought it was a strange comment from you. I had teasingly thought "I bet someone says "it must be blowback!!"" and was ready with a rebuttal, but I hadn't expected it from you. Glad to see you're not slipping ;)


the most interesting thing i noticed was how much bouncing around that ball does in the breach. that sucker is all over the place!


That is not too bad!! We have seen A LOT worse. obviously it doesn't help when 1/3 of the breech is missing, as well as a detent..........
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#226 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:08 PM

But regardless of how "stuck" the 2 balls are together (I am going to call the overlapping, broken balls, Ball3 and Ball4) why would ball3 start to fall down the feed, then hover, and then go back up the feed, before coming down? It looks quite central, it doesn't look jammed against the feedtube wall.

Yes we need an acrylic feedtube next.

But that body is pretty cool, isn't it? You can see right into the barrel at the firing-point. You see the ball the way into the barrel, and then the initial acceleration as it leaves the bolt face. We did this after the first session, when we realised we needed to see the initial phase of the ball acceleration.

Ryan, I thought it was a strange comment from you. I had teasingly thought "I bet someone says "it must be blowback!!"" and was ready with a rebuttal, but I hadn't expected it from you. Glad to see you're not slipping ;)


the most interesting thing i noticed was how much bouncing around that ball does in the breach. that sucker is all over the place!


That is not too bad!! We have seen A LOT worse. obviously it doesn't help when 1/3 of the breech is missing, as well as a detent..........


yeah i noticed that too. but it was interesting to see that even with the missing side and the detent the ball tended to bounce in a V type shape, around the detents, and partially into the feedneck again. that motion being in the plane that we see, not in the Z direction if you will.

Edited by cockerpunk, 16 December 2008 - 05:08 PM.

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#227 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:15 PM

Oh, yes, definitely. I was more suggesting that the Deftek Offset feed was not working as designed in this instance because of the missing support from the feedtube and near breech wall.

In a normal "aligned" breech this is the kind of motion you could expect to see, if not worse.
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#228 Poe

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:22 PM

But regardless of how "stuck" the 2 balls are together (I am going to call the overlapping, broken balls, Ball3 and Ball4) why would ball3 start to fall down the feed, then hover, and then go back up the feed, before coming down? It looks quite central, it doesn't look jammed against the feedtube wall.
...


Basically that's what I was saying, except only the third ball looks centered in the neck. Could the third ball be stuck (via paint) to the fourth while the fourth is wedged or stuck... maybe on the bottom of the hopper?

...
Yes we need an acrylic feedtube next.

But that body is pretty cool, isn't it? You can see right into the barrel at the firing-point. You see the ball the way into the barrel, and then the initial acceleration as it leaves the bolt face. We did this after the first session, when we realised we needed to see the initial phase of the ball acceleration.
...


That really showed quite a lot. Any chance future tests will include a Cure Bolt or Deftek Offset?

#229 ktap

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:46 PM

a few thoughts:

couldn't making the feedneck smaller in diameter decrease the overall wedging action of the balls?, feednecks are pretty large, you can fit about one and a half balls in horizontally. if the balls were aligned pretty much vertically wouldn't the shape of the ball disperse the pressure better?

On reasons from most barrel brakes, that are not a cause of a loading fracture, happening within 1 to 3 inches of the breech.
we seem to have determined that friction is not the cause of barrel breaks. also we are pretty sure that the force of the power pulse does not break the ball either (one in 3k+ shots is not a large factor). but could there not be a point during the acceleration, that the combined forces of increased friction due to acceleration, and the force of the power pulse, equal a force larger than each of them alone. also theoretically would this not occur at a time relatively recently after the pulse, when there still is a relatively large amount of pressure, but late enough that friction has increased, such as 1-3" down the barrel (i believe i saw someone post this same kind of statement earlier in punkworks, but i couldn't find it)?

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#230 Jack Wood

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:14 AM

a few thoughts:

couldn't making the feedneck smaller in diameter decrease the overall wedging action of the balls?, feednecks are pretty large, you can fit about one and a half balls in horizontally. if the balls were aligned pretty much vertically wouldn't the shape of the ball disperse the pressure better?

On reasons from most barrel brakes, that are not a cause of a loading fracture, happening within 1 to 3 inches of the breech.
we seem to have determined that friction is not the cause of barrel breaks. also we are pretty sure that the force of the power pulse does not break the ball either (one in 3k+ shots is not a large factor). but could there not be a point during the acceleration, that the combined forces of increased friction due to acceleration, and the force of the power pulse, equal a force larger than each of them alone. also theoretically would this not occur at a time relatively recently after the pulse, when there still is a relatively large amount of pressure, but late enough that friction has increased, such as 1-3" down the barrel (i believe i saw someone post this same kind of statement earlier in punkworks, but i couldn't find it)?


I'm not convinced about the wedging in the feed, and without an acrylic feedtube we are not going to know. I think Poe could be right with the 4th ball jammed in the feed and 4rd ball stuck to it, but not 100% convinced. I certainly can't think of a better reason right now.

Making the feed smaller would just leave a step between the loader feedneck and the gun feeneck and more chance of jamming. A uniform diameter should work best.

And yes, the combination of forces was what I was eluding to in a previous post around page 8-9 in this thread. To me, it looks like not just a single factor but a combination of factors all occuring at that crusial phase of initial acceleration.
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#231 Jack Wood

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 03:25 AM

http://video.google....3...15549&hl=en

available to download so it can be played in Quicktime and frame advanced.
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#232 Poe

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 07:40 AM

http://video.google....3...15549&hl=en

available to download so it can be played in Quicktime and frame advanced.


Thank you!
:)

#233 p8ntballer

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 07:11 PM

ok barrel really dosent even matter that much I just use cp 689

#234 y2ksurvivor

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 08:33 PM

So, we are setting up a "Learning Channel" on Planet Eclipse Youtube site. As well as slo mo stuff it will have educational stuff for users to do with our guns, like maintenance, break-down, settings, etc.

The location is www.youtube.com/planeteclipsetv

We are going to put the Slow Mo stuff here for now, and hopefully on my google videos site so that you can download it for other players.

Here is the latest one: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=j9WJoWtjAeA

Notice how the broken ball levitates in the feed? Why?


Well that video was cuased from the loader going way to fast and constant pressure + VERY fragile paint.
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#235 A.E.D.paintballer

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:17 AM

it was cool tho. amazing how much the paint goes all over the place in a loading fracture and how that it litterally ''chops'' the bottom of a ball. good stuff!
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#236 Nick Brockdorff

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 01:12 PM

it was cool tho. amazing how much the paint goes all over the place in a loading fracture and how that it litterally ''chops'' the bottom of a ball. good stuff!


That video is extremely interesting Jack!

Seems to suggest, that your next gun project, should incorporate shutting off the breach from the stack, once a ball is loaded...... which will ofcourse be difficult without just creating another device to crush balls :-)

But, if you could manage it, you would be able to avoid a lot of en ensuing problems from a loading fracture.

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#237 sunshaker

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 04:16 PM

Will the size of the Stack have an effect on the balls breaking?

I know that my stack is about 10 balls (Ion with SP Clamping Feedneck and VLocity), as shown in this really bad drawing http://img230.images...allstackww5.jpg . I know this will probably change from marker to marker and loader to loader, including the modifications (my friend keeps trying to get me to chop my loader neck). The reason I ask is would a half ball in the stack make a significant difference (say I chop the loader neck by 1/2 a paintball ~.340")?

I suspect it won't but I figured I'd ask as no one seemed to be bringing it up.

#238 ktap

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 08:01 PM

i think it would, because it would increase the overall amount of balls in the stack. this is where i think the most damage is done by the loader, as they are under the full pressure of the motor and clock spring. the more balls being subjected to the force, the higher the possibility of a loading fracture. also, the longer the stack, the longer the ball is in this high pressure situation.

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#239 Troy

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 10:57 PM

i think it would, because it would increase the overall amount of balls in the stack. this is where i think the most damage is done by the loader, as they are under the full pressure of the motor and clock spring. the more balls being subjected to the force, the higher the possibility of a loading fracture. also, the longer the stack, the longer the ball is in this high pressure situation.

Ah, but the longer the stack, the more the force of the loader is distributed on different numbers of balls... Its not a straight forward problem really, and the answer depends greatly on the ability to regulate (or not) the amount of force from the loader to the stack.
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#240 ktap

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 11:22 PM

for sake of argument and clarity, lets say there is a constant and even pressure down by the clock spring of the loader when inactive, and a higher but still constant pressure when feeding.

this is my logic, the loader puts out a certain amount of force, and each ball has 3 tangent points of contact, ball underneath or bolt, side of feedneck, and ball above. since each additional ball only adds a very small surface area, the net force of the loader is not significantly diminished. less time spent under this pressure the smaller the chance of a loading fracture, so a shorter stack seems to, in theory, reduce the amount of loading fracture. However i do agree with Troy that there may be an optimal stack length, but overall i think it would be relatively short.

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#241 cockerpunk

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 11:30 PM

for sake of argument and clarity, lets say there is a constant and even pressure down by the clock spring of the loader when inactive, and a higher but still constant pressure when feeding.

this is my logic, the loader puts out a certain amount of force, and each ball has 3 tangent points of contact, ball underneath or bolt, side of feedneck, and ball above. since each additional ball only adds a very small surface area, the net force of the loader is not significantly diminished. less time spent under this pressure the smaller the chance of a loading fracture, so a shorter stack seems to, in theory, reduce the amount of loading fracture. However i do agree with Troy that there may be an optimal stack length, but overall i think it would be relatively short.


i think the ideal stack length would be zero ...
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#242 Jack Wood

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 09:19 AM

In our experience of several different "loading systems" a shorter stack will lead to more fractures.

Paintballs do have a certain amount of elasticity in them (we know this, as you would never get a bouncer if they didn't) and certainly the more there are in the stack, the more the force of the loader mechanism is distributed through the paintballs between breech and loader.

But that is only really true if we are talking about High Force loaders trying to achieve High ROFs. It should make no difference at all how long the stack is, as long as the loader is "tuned" to the stack lenght, ROF requirement, and Paintball fragility of the complete system.

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#243 Jack Wood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:56 AM

New Video:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=channel

Any comments?

It's uploading to Google vids now so you can download it and play it in Quicktime and frame advance it.

Edited by Jack Wood, 09 January 2009 - 03:28 AM.

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#244 Poe

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:38 AM

New Video:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=channel

Any comments?

It's uploading to Google vids now so you can download it and play it in Quicktime and frame advance it.


Looks great. Thank you. :)

#245 Jack Wood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:40 AM

Google Vids

http://video.google....1...93843&hl=en

In the "Details" tan in the top right, scroll to "Download Video - iPod/PSP" and then play the vid in Quicktime. You can then frame advance the video.

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#246 Lord Odin

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:51 AM

Really cool video, Jack! Thanks for sharing it.

It looks like the the ball, despite having split in half, travels forward a little bit before the gas found a weak spot on the bottom side. There, it was able to slip past and blow out, further ripping the ball by grabbing that end of the shell. You can see the paint and even the gas push from the bottom up towards the top of the barrel after it passes the ball. It almost looks like all of the gases want to go around the mass in the middle (broken shell and paint) rather then blow through it. If you look near the bolt, it seems to me that the majority of the paint is remaining stationary and the gas blowing around it is slowly stripping the paint away rather than just blowing the blob into smithereens. Perhaps the high gas flow would explain why the first few inches of breaks are clean on the barrel. The gas is moving so fast that it doesn't give the paint and shell a chance to hit the walls.

Jack, do you know how far back in the action that ball was broken? Did it happen in the loader, feedneck, breech, etc?

#247 Jack Wood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 08:40 AM

Really cool video, Jack! Thanks for sharing it.

It looks like the the ball, despite having split in half, travels forward a little bit before the gas found a weak spot on the bottom side. There, it was able to slip past and blow out, further ripping the ball by grabbing that end of the shell. You can see the paint and even the gas push from the bottom up towards the top of the barrel after it passes the ball. It almost looks like all of the gases want to go around the mass in the middle (broken shell and paint) rather then blow through it. If you look near the bolt, it seems to me that the majority of the paint is remaining stationary and the gas blowing around it is slowly stripping the paint away rather than just blowing the blob into smithereens. Perhaps the high gas flow would explain why the first few inches of breaks are clean on the barrel. The gas is moving so fast that it doesn't give the paint and shell a chance to hit the walls.

Jack, do you know how far back in the action that ball was broken? Did it happen in the loader, feedneck, breech, etc?


It fell down from P3 with a crack in it. The crack grew as it hit the breech and more again when another ball plumped on top of it.

Yes, the speed of gas seems to keep the paint off the sidewalls for a little while.
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#248 Jack Wood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:25 AM

Willie, and TechPB have been very very kind in offerening to host higher resolution files of our videos.

This is a trial, so here is the first one.

If you all like this format, we will go ahead and make all the videos available like this so that you get to see everything in much better detail.

http://www.techpb.co...ak_complete.mov

Please let us know what you think.

Cheers, and thanks Willie!!

Jack

Edited by Jack Wood, 08 January 2009 - 11:47 AM.

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#249 moyster14

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:32 AM

Willie, and TechPB have been very very kind in offerening to host higher resolution files of our videos.

This is a trial, so here is the first one.

If you all like this format, we will go ahead and make all the videos available like this so that you get to see everything in much better detail.

http://www.techpb.co...ak_complete.mov

Please let us know what you think.

Cheers, and thanks Willie!!

Jack


Pretty cool vid Jack.

I couldn't get the new download to work. It says something about not being able to read the source file.
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#250 Jack Wood

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:48 AM

Willie, and TechPB have been very very kind in offerening to host higher resolution files of our videos.

This is a trial, so here is the first one.

If you all like this format, we will go ahead and make all the videos available like this so that you get to see everything in much better detail.

http://www.techpb.com/videos/PE Videos/Barrel_break_complete.mov

Please let us know what you think.

Cheers, and thanks Willie!!

Jack


Pretty cool vid Jack.

I couldn't get the new download to work. It says something about not being able to read the source file.


Please try it again. There was a problem with the way I copied the link, sorry.

Barrel Break Download

Jack

Edited by Jack Wood, 08 January 2009 - 11:50 AM.

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