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JJ Ceramic barrel vs CP barrel


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#1 JohnG10

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 06:15 PM

I'm new to paintball and find the tests on bore size, control length & porting length to be extremely useful. I see that a .003-.005 underbore with a 9" control bore is best, but I still have a few questions:

1. I have a 2009 Xtra with a 10" barrel with an almost mirror-like polish along the entire bore. I also have a Spyder 15.5" "Sniper" (model name) barrel with a slightly less mirror-like level of polish and barely notice a difference in the accuracy (vertical and horizontal standard deviation) with XO V1 paint. Will I notice a significant accuracy difference if I get a JJ Ceramic or CP barrel ?

2. Is the inside of the JJ ceramic barrel any slippier than the inside of the CP barrels ? (I can see the balls curving near the end of their range with a clean stock barrel, and would like to reduce the effect). Has PW's tested a 14" .685 JJ Ceramic barrel so that we can if the accuracy vector is any different than the CP barrel ? (I searched but couldn't find it in any of the tests). Does the bore of the JJ Ceramic scratch easier than the CP bore when paint or condensation is swabbed out with the fuzzy swabs (Redz, etc).

3. Does paint diameter vary enough that a barrel sizing kit works significantly better even if you choose to underbore or overbore rather than paint match ? Is the diameter mostly consistant within a brand of paint ? Does the diameter change significantly enough during the day that you'd change barrel backs between woodsball games ? (I live in Maryland, where it's often 60 degrees and 60% humidity in the morning and 85 degrees with 805% humidity in the afternoon).

4. Is the 14" or 16" total length better - from both a velocity std dev and accuracy vector point of view ?


Thanks.



#2 LieutenantDan

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 06:29 PM

Here's the issue. The standard deviations and vector differences are barely different enough to be statistically significant, and that's holding down the marker with a vice grip. Then, it has been proven that the paintball really does make the most difference with accuracy. I don't remember who did the test, but he got some low grade paint and smoothed out the seams manually, and its accuracy went up to Evil paint level.
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#3 Leafy

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 06:32 PM

If accuracy is your only goal then its likely that the stock barrel is fine if it has a consistant finish. In the battle of j&j vs cp I'd choose the j&j except that they only come in one bore size. However you don't seem too concerned with efficiency so underboring isn't as big of an issue here. The j&j and cp should have the same accuracy but the j&j is a much better looking barrel than the cp, which is the deal killer for me with the cp. Also the j&j doesn't scratch on the inside.

To sum up, if accuracy is your only consern any barrel with a consistant surface finish will be about equal, save your money and spend it on more expensive paint. The better the paint the better your accuracy.

#4 brycelarson

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 06:34 PM

ok, first of all - welcome to PunkWorks. I saw your post title and assumed I would have to throw it into a different section of the forum - but those are some decent questions.

1. no. Unless the barrel you're replacing is utter junk you won't see an accuracy improvement.
2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive. As to hardness - again, don't know. one of the engineer types might be better able to answer. As long as you're not planning to jam your swab through when it's filled with rocks and sand then I wouldn't worry about it.
3. I use a barrel kit becuase then I can adjust to whatever the paint happens to be. There can be pretty large fluctuations in paint size in the same batch. I'm also in a moderate climate - so I don't see the large change in ball size throughout the day like some people claim in hot / humid areas. I don't normally change barrels during a day of play - but I tend to just hit an extreme underbore and leave it all day. I really haven't used a barrel bigger than .680 for years.
4. on a one piece constant bore barrel like a CP - 10 and 12" barrels are the most efficient. on a two piece with a large bore front 12 or 14" are the most efficient. 16" starts to lose a bit in every barrel design we've tested.

#5 JohnG10

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 05:33 PM

Thanks to everyone who explained that paint was probably a bigger issue. I'm definitely planning to start using better paint. Any recommendations ?

In addition, I'm still thinking of also upgrading my barrel so I can hit pieces of opponents sticking out of bunkers more reliably.

Bryce, thanks for the thorough response on barrels.

Re #2: I noticed that with cheap paint, I can see the balls curve sideways as the velocity drops off down range (even after I reclean the barrrel just to make sure there's nothing there even though I can't see anything clouding the mirror finish). It appears that the curving issue is related to how much spin the balls get from rubbing against the inside of the barrel. The better paint doesn't curve enough to be easily visible by eye, but I suspect that barrel-friction induced spin is contributing to the X & Y standard deviations in your test data. If that's the case, then the vector could be used to measure the effects of barrel's slippery-ness. ps: I would think the best way to measure paintball accuracy / spread is by calculating the size of the circle required to contain 90% of the shots (given normal or t-distribution assumptions). Is your vector measurement the radius of this type of circle ? (I couldn't find the description of the calculation).

Re # 1: Have you done any tests with the stock barrels on the $150-200 Spyder (or similar) guns ? The barrels are advertised as "better" by the manufacturer (ie: compared to their $75 guns), but test data is probably the only way to know how much worse the stock barrels are compared to the CP or JJ barrels...

Re #3: Interesting, how to you pick your control bore for the day - based on the average, smallest, or largest paint size from the sample you measure ?

Re #4: Thanks for the info. I hadn't picked up on that when I looked through the test data.

ps: Does anyone know what the bore size is for the JJ Ceramic barrel ?

#6 NP Operator

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

Bore size on the JJ seams to be around .688-.690

#7 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:34 PM

Thanks to everyone who explained that paint was probably a bigger issue. I'm definitely planning to start using better paint. Any recommendations ?

In addition, I'm still thinking of also upgrading my barrel so I can hit pieces of opponents sticking out of bunkers more reliably.

Bryce, thanks for the thorough response on barrels.

Re #2: I noticed that with cheap paint, I can see the balls curve sideways as the velocity drops off down range (even after I reclean the barrrel just to make sure there's nothing there even though I can't see anything clouding the mirror finish). It appears that the curving issue is related to how much spin the balls get from rubbing against the inside of the barrel. The better paint doesn't curve enough to be easily visible by eye, but I suspect that barrel-friction induced spin is contributing to the X & Y standard deviations in your test data. If that's the case, then the vector could be used to measure the effects of barrel's slippery-ness. ps: I would think the best way to measure paintball accuracy / spread is by calculating the size of the circle required to contain 90% of the shots (given normal or t-distribution assumptions). Is your vector measurement the radius of this type of circle ? (I couldn't find the description of the calculation).

Re # 1: Have you done any tests with the stock barrels on the $150-200 Spyder (or similar) guns ? The barrels are advertised as "better" by the manufacturer (ie: compared to their $75 guns), but test data is probably the only way to know how much worse the stock barrels are compared to the CP or JJ barrels...

Re #3: Interesting, how to you pick your control bore for the day - based on the average, smallest, or largest paint size from the sample you measure ?

Re #4: Thanks for the info. I hadn't picked up on that when I looked through the test data.

ps: Does anyone know what the bore size is for the JJ Ceramic barrel ?



It's not the friction causing spin that produces the curving off of cheap paint, its the dimples and seams of the bad paint creating uneven airflow and air resistance over the surface of the paint as it moves through the air. A barrel doesn't change what happens to the paint down range.

Edited by BurningPlaydoh, 24 March 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#8 dosh

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:17 PM

2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.

#9 unfated33

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:00 PM



2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.

Do that test! I am very curious about some of those vs. the J&J ceramic barrel. I've heard lots of anecdotes about the J&J having a nicer finish. I'd love to know both whether that is true and whether it matters.
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#10 madsnipes

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

I don't remember who did the test, but he got some low grade paint and smoothed out the seams manually, and its accuracy went up to Evil paint level.

I'm pretty sure that was rntlee

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#11 cockerpunk

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:11 AM



2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.


what kind of machine? i was using a white light interferometer.

Edited by cockerpunk, 28 March 2013 - 09:12 AM.

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#12 FreeEnterprise

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

Lol, this thread went full nerd quick! haha! What the heck is a "interferometer"!...


Learning how to buy good paint is the single biggest factor for accuracy at range when playing paintball. I prefer spinning my paint as it seems to smooth out the flight path when using a medium spin from an Apex system. And the accuracy you can get is pretty impressive...




#13 dosh

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:18 PM




2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.


what kind of machine? i was using a white light interferometer.


A Federal Mogul Pocket Surf III Profilometer. I calibrated it the other day on a 120 Ra patch and it read 119.

#14 unfated33

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:52 PM





2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.


what kind of machine? i was using a white light interferometer.


A Federal Mogul Pocket Surf III Profilometer. I calibrated it the other day on a 120 Ra patch and it read 119.

This one?

What's the difference in what's being measured between Ra, Rmax/Ry, and Rz?

EDIT: Nevermind, answered my own question. Ra is just the mean surface height, Rmax/Ry is the maximum peak, and Rz is a ten-point mean. http://sg.misumi-ec....pr1167_1168.pdf

Edited by unfated33, 28 March 2013 - 06:54 PM.

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#15 dustyshouri

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:18 PM

I have no experience with CP barrels, but I think one of my favorite things about my J&J was its self-cleaning. I only have one J&J, and it was just on my Tippmann 98... but I never had to clean my barrel during a game of playing again. I was really surprised seeing paint fly out the barrel a few times, then taking my barrel off, thinking I need to clean it out only to find it's pretty much pristine inside.

When all was said and done, when I got the barrel it was for various other reasons(upgrading from stock Tippmann barrel, rookie approach to accuracy and such)... but now my favorite aspect is its self-cleaning.

#16 Orange Chicken

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:19 PM

Nerds...

No but this was an actually pretty interesting read, as always.
But to the op, the only advice is to buy better paint. If your gun is a tad harsher on paint, id use marbalizers or gi 4 star. If not, then go straight to Ultra Evil. For general use thats not too expensive, RPS Premium is amazing.

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#17 cockerpunk

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:50 PM





2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.


what kind of machine? i was using a white light interferometer.


A Federal Mogul Pocket Surf III Profilometer. I calibrated it the other day on a 120 Ra patch and it read 119.


is that microns or microinches?
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#18 dosh

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:04 PM






2. I don't know if it's slicker or not. We've talked about trying to measure surface finish on barrels - but the equipment is really expensive.


I can do surface finish, what barrels do you need them for? I've got Freak inserts, Boomstick, Ultralite, All American. CP, stock barrels and a few others.


what kind of machine? i was using a white light interferometer.


A Federal Mogul Pocket Surf III Profilometer. I calibrated it the other day on a 120 Ra patch and it read 119.


is that microns or microinches?


Microinches




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