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Poppet Vs Spoolie...whats the difference?


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#1 ZeroSix

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:01 AM

First let me say I have been in the sport for several years. However I am not a wiz on the workings of the markers themselves, mainly i play, shoot fools and go home happy.
Recently I have matured into the detailings of my marker and want to know more on the technical side.

I have a rough understanding that a shocker is a spoolie and ego a poppet. But I am looking for the break down of workings

I keep reading about Spoolies this and Poppets that. But can someone explain what the difference is in detail and how it affects the physics and game play of the gun? Not a why this is better, i can draw my own conclusions without muddled opinions. I just want the facts :D

#2 Dasquirel

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:53 AM

Mike did a video on Spools vs Poppet's ill try and find it


Edited by Ced, 13 June 2010 - 06:00 AM.

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#3 Ced

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:59 AM

Okay, here goes. :)

Spoolie

Pro: Very smooth, low vibration, "buttery", less loud report
Con: Less efficient, more maintenance, needs orings constantly, a bit more weight, most have FSDO
Reason: The Spoolie has a larger air chamber that moves the bolt "in line", and the bolt has a lot of wear. While the large chamber makes things softer, and there is no spring or second tube with a valve, it also uses up more air. As the bolt and firing chamber need to be as sealed as possible, there is a constant need for grease/lube and good orings. Expect 1100++ shots of a 68/4500 with a contemporary midrange spoolie.

Poppet

Pro: Efficient, low maintenance, doesn't need a lot of spares, a bit less weight, almost no FSDO
Con: More vibration, louder report, "kicky"
Reason: The Poppet has the valve that is hit by a ram, to push it open against the pressure in it, which causes vibration. That movement is quite abrupt, which results in "kicky" feel. As the bolt doesn't have to be 100% sealed (because it is not part of the actual valve system), though, there is less maintenance needed, and the valve compartment is often seperate in away, where dirt doesn't get to it. Furthermore, a bit of oil is sufficient lube, as only the bolt needs to run smooth, not seal perfectly. The short valve opening time of the poppets make them also more efficient. Expect 1800++ shots of a 68/4500 with a contemporary midrange poppet.

There are some markers that are outside of this frame, like the MacDev Droid, which is a spoolie with an efficiency of 1700++ shots, or the dump valve markers, which are spoolies by nature, but have a loud report and kick to them, or the Vanguard Creed, which is a poppet, but very smooth.

Edited by Ced, 13 June 2010 - 09:31 AM.

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#4 Dasquirel

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 08:45 AM

Cheers Ced I need to read up on how to put in a video :D
"I hated the M-16 because it didnt have a microswitch or Psp-3 shot"

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#5 Ced

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 09:31 AM

You can do it like this:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXfzQla0D_E[/media]
:)

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#6 Duke Scrotum

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 10:50 AM

Read this thread. the animations help a lot.

hey Ced can we get this stickied???

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#7 Miss_Hell

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 10:51 AM

If you want the simple version:

Poppets, there's a bolt and a valve.

Spools, the bolt IS the valve.

:wub:
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#8 ZeroSix

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 01:07 PM

Thanks for the info Ced. That is what i was looking for to answer my questions. The video also helped too :D

#9 Duke Scrotum

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:39 AM

Okay, so I've seen a few questions on the TechPB forums lately about spool valve and poppet valve markers. I'm here to hopefully answer your questions about them!

So how do I tell the difference between the two?
Without going into details about the internals (which I will later on in this thread) spool valve markers tend to shoot much quieter and smoother than poppet valve markers. Spool valve markers tend to have a much smoother sound like a "shuu" kind of sound, like we hear with Luxes and DM series markers, while with poppet valve markers you tend to hear a loud "pop" kind of noise, like we hear with Egos and Intimidators.

What's best for me?
It's all personal preference on the way they shoot. If you like having a super smooth, quiet marker, with almost un-noticeable "kick" and don't mind replacing the extra o-rings and lubing the bolt more often, then spool valves are probably the right marker for you. If you like having a low maintenance, super air efficent marker, and don't mind the extra "kick" you get with poppet valve markers, then poppet valve markers are generally the best bet for you. Again, you should try out both kinds of markers, as they both have a different kind of feel to them.

Why do Poppet Valve markers have more kick than Spool Valve Markers?
It's generally due to the fact that they are a "poppet" valve. They use a hammer to open the valve, which is normally closed. That is extra force that spool valves do not use, giving them more "kick"
Edit: Kowz_76 has a point on his statement aswell. The actual bolt/rammer on a poppet valve weigh more than a spool valves bolt would weigh. That also contributes to kick.

How do spool valve markers work?
Spool valve markers usually have much fewer moving parts than the poppet valve markers, but have more o-rings.
The spool valve works when the solenoid tells the bolt to move forward, and as it pushes the ball past the detents, there is a blast of air that comes from behind the bolt. When the blast of air reaches the paintball that is past the detents, the ball is fired through the barrel at the target.
Here is an animation that should hopefully help you understand this better.
Posted Image

How do poppet valve markers work?
Poppet valve markers use a hammer, or rammer, to hit a poppet valve that is shut when not hit by the rammer. The solenoid tells the bolt/rammer to move forward. When the rammer hits the poppet valve, pressured air is let through a pathway, to the bolt. The air then rushes through the bolt, that has pushed the ball through the detents while the rammer is moving toward the poppet valve, toward the ball, which is fired through the barrel at the target. Here is an animation that should hopefully help you understand this better.
Posted Image

Most poppet valve markers are stacked tube designs, with the exception of the Angel. Most spool valve markers are single tube designs.

Hopefully, I clairified any confusion you have with poppet/spool valve markers.
If you have any questions, or anything to add, please, reply to this thread, or shout a pm to me!

Mikes video:


For other animations please visit http://www.zdspb.com...animations.html

EDIT: Here is some work by Lotus, explaining the differences between low end spools and poppets, and how they work.

This is an attempt to explain the different internals and also what differentiates the low-end, the mid-end, and the high-end markers. It can also help you understand exactly how your marker operates. Keep in mind this is going to be very technical, so be prepared.

Poppet Valve
Poppet Valves are basically a rubber seal held in place by a spring. They are opened by either a rammer striking it and opening it, or being pulled open. In paintball, we typically see the former. Most poppet valve designs are actually based off of the Spyder, seen below:
Posted Image
This basic design is typically referred to as a stacked tube "blowback" poppet. The bolt and ram are connected with a pin, and the ram is cycled backward and forward. At rest, the spring is compressed. When the trigger is pulled, a sear releases the rammer allowing the spring to move the rammer and bolt forward. At the end of the forward stroke, not only has the ball been sealed in the breech, but also the rammer strikes the poppet valve opening the airways not only to propel the ball forward, but also to push the rammer back to rest. While the rammer is returning to its resting position, it brings the bolt back with it. In this original Spyder design, the mechanisms used to cycle the rammer and hold it in place are 100% mechanical.

This changes in Dangerous Power's Fusion design, seen below:
Posted Image
Those moving red dots represent a spring in this diagram. You can see them being compressed to the right of the rammer (the rammer is green). This design is referred to as a FASOR design: forward air, spring operated return. Although this is still an electro, the solenoid only needs to direct air to one spot: behind the rammer. This air propels the rammer forward which then opens the poppet firing the ball. The spring which has been compressed during the forward movement then returns the rammer to its original position. Because air only needs to be directed to one spot, this marker makes use of a one-way solenoid. The use of a spring means a cheaper cost, but increased NVH (noise vibration harshness) and it can lead to more kick.

This is different from the Intimidator/Ego design seen below (note, this is an Ego. Intimidators are extremely similar but have one minor difference that I don't think is important enough to discuss)
Posted Image
As you can see, in this design the ram is cycled solely by air and there are no springs present. Also, the air is low pressured fed by an Low Pressure Regulator (LPR), making it smoother, gentler on paint, and more efficient. You'll also notice that the solenoid must direct air to two different locations in this design. First the air propels the rammer forward like the Fusion design, but there is no spring. Instead the return mechanism is air directed to the other side of the rammer. Because air needs to be directed to both sides of the rammer, a two-way solenoid is needed. This means this marker is going to be more expensive, but also higher performance since it will not require a spring and therefore has less NVH and kick than the Fusion design.


That's the basic hierarchy of the Stacked Tube Poppet. Next are two completely different and independent poppet designs. The first is the Marq series:
Posted Image
This is an in-line poppet, similar to the Intimidator/Ego design, except it has all been placed in the upper tube. This still requires a two-way solenoid and an LPR, and there are no return springs present. Also, since the rammer and bolt are in-line, there is greatly reduced kick to this marker because there is no off-axis forces (don't worry about that sentence if you didn't understand it. In short, in-line poppet = less kick). However, you can see that the compressed air used to fire the marker has area to expand before firing the ball, so this decreases efficiency. Maintenance is also more difficult, as you can imagine. However, the efficiency is still good and maintenance is very similar to a spool-valve, and it is also smooth.
Then we have the Invert Mini. I'm willing to bet that some of you will not be able to understand the following diagram, but I'll do my best to explain it:
Posted Image
Again, those red moving dots are a spring. This spring keeps the bolt held back in place. This uses a one-way solenoid to move the bolt forward against the spring. As you can see, when the bolt has moved forward all the way, there is an opening connecting the air pushing the bolt forward to the firing chamber. You'll see the purple air expand in both directions when this opens up, both towards the ball and towards the poppet. This opening I'm talking about is actually a spool-valve incorporated into the design. The air, after pushing the bolt forward, goes to the rear of the firing chamber, and then hits on the poppet. While this air strikes the poppet on one side, you can see that the pressure drops on the other side. This pull/push opens the poppet, thereby firing the ball. Yes, in this case the air is the rammer that opens the poppet. It's very strange, and I hope you can follow that because it's not the easiest to explain. This is also an in-line poppet. However, it uses a spring to return the marker to rest and uses a one-way solenoid. This means that it will have increased NVH and kick. Also, due to the way the air travels, it will not be as efficient as any other poppet since it is also a spool-valve. Worse even than the Marq. Also, maintenance is more difficult, however it's still not bad.

Spool Valves
A spool-valve is a valve design where the bolt opens up an air chamber when it moves forward. The basic spool-valve design is the ProtoMatrixRail/Ion/Vibe design. The Ion and Rail have virtually the same valve design, with the rail having a weird extra feature that vents some excess air out the back of the bolt while sealing the firing chamber (don't worry about that). Here is the diagram:
Posted Image
As you can see, there are no springs. Spool-valves are typically smoother than Poppets, but less efficient and arguably harder to maintain due to the increased amount of moving O-Rings. The air is constantly applied to the rear of the chamber, with a one-way solenoid directing air to the front. When firing, the solenoid cuts off air flow to the front of the bolt. The constant air supply to the rear propels the bolt forward, eventually opening up a passageway for the air in the rear to launch the ball. The solenoid then re-applies the air to the front of the bolt to return the marker to rest. There are three important aspects to this design. First, there is no LPR. Second, it only requires a one-way solenoid. Third, the air acting on the two sides of the bolt are different from one another, or in other words this is an unbalanced spool-valve. These are very cheap to produce due to the one-way solenoid and lack of an LPR, yet are still very smooth with little NVH because there are no springs present. However they aren't as efficient or as smooth as the following designs because the valves are unbalanced and, to some degree, there is no LPR. Also, the increased amount of moving O-Rings in this design means that it is prone to bolt-stick, and will be a bit harder to maintain.
This is the Threshold/G3/Rev-I design:
Posted Image

This is very similar in principle to the Rail/Ion/Vibe design, but very different in practice. As you can see, it still uses a one-way solenoid holding the bolt back, there is no LPR, and the valve is still unbalanced. However, as you can also see, the bolt is very simple, much lighter, and it has fewer O-Rings. This means it is less prone to bolt stick, it can be more efficient, has less kick, and is also a bit easier to maintain. However, remember this is still cheap to produce and unbalanced so there's still room for improvement.
The Matrix Design (Proto Matrix and Dye Matrix, this is NOT the PMR design. the PMR's design is the same as the Ion's design):
Posted Image
This is similar to the Rail/Ion/Vibe design. However it has two major differences. First, the air cycling the bolt back and forth are applied to the exterior of the bolt in an even fashion by a two-way solenoid. This means that unlike the previous designs, the Matrix is actually balanced. It will be even smoother than the others. The second major difference is that the firing chamber seals itself when the marker fires. In all the previous designs, the firing chamber stayed open to the HPR the entire time. In this design you can clearly see how the air flow from the HPR is cut, or sealed during the firing cycle by those two rear-most o-rings. This seal means that the HPR's recharge rate does not effect the consistency of the marker at all. In other words, these markers are more consistent. The Matrix design also makes use of an LPR to cycle the bolt.
This is the Shocker/Luxe design:
Posted Image
As you can see, very similar to the Matrix design. The valve is balanced and fed by a two-way solenoid. However, where the Matrix's air was input near the rear, the Shocker is fed from near the feedneck. This does not use an LPR to cycle the bolt.


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#10 ZeroSix

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:34 AM

Thanks for the post guys, this is helpful to what i was looking for. The diagrams with explinations really help to understand what I am looking at, and looking for in my markers. I really appreciate it guys.

#11 Front Lines

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:17 AM

There is some geed information on this page but why the hell did it get pinned, the only thing that gets pinned are thing that are giving information not asking for it.
95% of teens would cry if they saw the whole twilight cast standing on top of a sky scraper about to jump. If your one of the 5% who would sit there eating popcorn saying "DO A FLIP!!" copy and paste this in your sig
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#12 Duke Scrotum

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:21 AM

There is some geed information on this page but why the hell did it get pinned, the only thing that gets pinned are thing that are giving information not asking for it.


i asked for it to be pinned. mainly because all those diagrams should be pinned because there has been a lot of questions about how certain markers function.

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#13 ZeroSix

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:33 AM

Isnt this thread giving information by the fact that I am asking what many are probably wondering but unwilling to ask or dont know where to find? Maybe its like Jeopardy, the answer must come in the form of a question?



#14 thebeast307

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:43 PM

First let me say I have been in the sport for several years. However I am not a wiz on the workings of the markers themselves, mainly i play, shoot fools and go home happy.
Recently I have matured into the detailings of my marker and want to know more on the technical side.


You just described me to myself haha

What kind of valve is in the A1`s?




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#15 ZeroSix

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 11:18 PM

From what I under stand the A-1 is a poppet system. However its not a stacked tube because it has the 2 tubes on the bottom. I dont know how it works really, i just have read enough already to know that :)



#16 Duke Scrotum

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:27 AM

First let me say I have been in the sport for several years. However I am not a wiz on the workings of the markers themselves, mainly i play, shoot fools and go home happy.
Recently I have matured into the detailings of my marker and want to know more on the technical side.


You just described me to myself haha

What kind of valve is in the A1`s?


Its a poppit. look here

Posted Image

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#17 Back Player

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:07 PM

Do you guys know of any animation for the Geo 2??
95% of teens would cry if they saw the whole twilight cast standing on top of a sky scraper about to jump. If your one of the 5% who would sit there eating popcorn saying "DO A FLIP!!" put this in your sig
If you are under 18 and buy your own gear put this in your sig
IF YOU LIKE PAINTBALL PUT THIS IN YOUR SIG

#18 Liko

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:34 PM

Do you guys know of any animation for the Geo 2??


It's an unbalanced, springless, blow-forward spool valve marker. It's probably closest to the Ion in its inner workings, but unlike the Ion in which the bolt IS the valve, the Geo2 has a seperate floating valve that, in one piece, seals both the bolt at one end and the gas input at the other. So, there are two moving parts; the bolt and the floating valve.

At rest, pressure fed through a solenoid-controlled valve holds the bolt in its rearward position within the cam (which doesn't move and acts solely to guide the bolt and contain the pressure from the solenoid holding it back); behind it is a "charge cell" of pressurized gas locked off on both sides by the two way valve, which makes contact with both the endcap (which gets gas from the reg) and bolt. Pull the trigger and the solenoid releases the retaining pressure. Pressure in the charge cell forces the bolt forward, eventually breaking the seal between the floating valve and bolt, releasing the gas charge and firing the ball. That release of pressure in turn unbalances the pressure on the other side of the two-way valve, which has been holding back pressure from the input reg into the charge cell. The floating valve is forced forward, allowing gas from the reg to enter the charge cell and simultaneously re-closing the seal between valve and bolt, repressurizing the charge cell. Meanwhile, the solenoid has returned to its resting state, which allows pressurized air in between the cam and bolt to move the bolt back to its rearward position; the valve moves backward with it, eventually sealing off the input as the marker returns to rest.

#19 M01R

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 12:16 AM

Just wondering why this was stickied again? I believe my original post was stickied and is in the MEGA Newbie Guide found here, figure 6. http://www.techpb.co...showtopic=68599

You gotta be careful. Don't just go in there with hopes you'll be done in a few seconds, take time, make designs, put your name in it. Whatever. It gets the job done, and you feel good after, knowing nobodycan steal your junk, because your name is engraved in your manhair.

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#20 paintballkills

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 02:54 PM

Mike did a video on Spools vs Poppet's ill try and find it

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXfzQla0D_E"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=EXfzQla0D_E[/url]



#21 paintballkills

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 02:56 PM

KK THANKS FOR THE VIDEO IM ALWAYS WONDERING WAT MY FRIENDS ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN THEY SAY IT A POPPET OR SPOOLEPosted Image



#22 SuperSpartan617

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:01 PM

KK THANKS FOR THE VIDEO IM ALWAYS WONDERING WAT MY FRIENDS ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN THEY SAY IT A POPPET OR SPOOLEPosted Image



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#23 FlyingFooBalls

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:11 AM

The DP fusion is awesome IMO, in terms of efficiency. The Blow forward/ spring back design uses less air, and personally, as a cocker shooter, i like to feel something in the gun when i shoot.
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#24 walrus27

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 08:10 PM

Spoolie's are less efficient than poppets, but quieter and less harsh on paint but cannot fire as fast (unless 30bps is too slow for you this shouldn't be a problem) and one of the biggest reasons when deciding poppet over spoolie is that you have to lube spoolie's like every three cases of paint and even though they're both extremely simple, poppets are slightly easier to take apart then spool.
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#25 ibunkerlittlekids

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:46 PM

If your one of the 5% who would sit there eating popcorn saying "DO A FLIP!!" put this in your sig
If you are under 18 and buy your own gear put this in your sig
IF YOU LIKE PAINTBALL PUT THIS IN YOUR SIG

#26 partsman26

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:22 AM

wow! this is some really good information. i've been a Tippmann guy for a while but just recently bought an Etek and was wondering exactly how it worked. thanks guys.

#27 PABLOTRON 3000

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 02:44 PM

I havent been in paintball that long but I personally am a Spool Fan

#28 ammo303

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 01:39 PM


First let me say I have been in the sport for several years. However I am not a wiz on the workings of the markers themselves, mainly i play, shoot fools and go home happy.
Recently I have matured into the detailings of my marker and want to know more on the technical side.


You just described me to myself haha

What kind of valve is in the A1`s?


Its a poppit. look here

Posted Image



I just love how simple Poppets are, plus I like a bit of kick

#29 Hebiki

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 04:29 PM

So its always been mentioned that Spoolies require more maintenance. Can we accurately define that (that = maintenance schedule)? As in... oil, check o-rings BEFORE and AFTER a day of playing? Every 2 full days of pb? what is the general rule of thumb for maintenance anyways? (this is for a non-tournament player. At my rate, I'm playing about twice a month.)

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#30 ammo303

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 04:40 PM

So its always been mentioned that Spoolies require more maintenance. Can we accurately define that (that = maintenance schedule)? As in... oil, check o-rings BEFORE and AFTER a day of playing? Every 2 full days of pb? what is the general rule of thumb for maintenance anyways? (this is for a non-tournament player. At my rate, I'm playing about twice a month.)


I maintain my marker after every day of use...orings and cleaning mainly, I play twice weekly, one at bushball and the other at speedball so I shoot about a case and a half a week. I go ahead and break down my marker fully every 2 months and lube the HPR and LPR as well as ram and such.

#31 pb kid

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 05:58 PM

i have the critical fep quest and my friend has the etek 3 lt.

mine is a spool and his is a popit.

mine since it is a spool is alot quieter than his etek 3 lt because his is a popit.

but if u get a spool u wont have as good efficency as a popit

#32 fonkysituation1

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 12:48 AM

nice post duke helped out alot..n u to ced

#33 pb24

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 01:58 PM

a dangerous power g3 is a dump valve is that a whole other kind or one of the thees too. What would be the best bolt for reballs because they are dirrtyer




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