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Chechen police shoot paintballs at women with uncovered hair.


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#1 thegreg

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 04:42 PM

Found this article on the mainpage of Digg. This is truly horrendous...

Police officers in Chechnya have been firing paintballs at Chechen women with uncovered hair; the policemen drive by in cars with tinted windows and shoot the women in the face and neck as they're walking down the street. Following the initial attacks last week, fliers from the shooters appeared in the Chechen city of Gudermes warning that if women didn't cover themselves the paintballers would resort to "tougher measures." The fliers also admonished, "Isn't it nasty for you, while dressed defiantly, with your head uncovered, to hear various obscene 'compliments' and proposals? Think again!"

This infuriating and degrading development shooting women with paint?! is one result of Russia's cold bargain with Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, a Chechen rebel-turned-Kremlin-loyalist. Trying to maintain control over Chechnya and quash any separatist uprisings, Russia has essentially allowed Kadryov to run the Chechen republic according to his version of Islamic law.

Russia has turned the other cheek as Kadryov gathers thousands of men into a personal militia to enforce bans on alcohol and mandatory headscarves for women. This method of enforcement via paintballing is particularly abhorrent both violent and humiliating, a form of subtle terror aimed at forcing women into subjugation.

Human rights activist Lyudmila Alexeyeva told Reuters, "this paintballing is an obvious Kadyrov rule just used to strengthen and tighten his grip over his tiny republic." Shooting women with paint in the face on the street and filming it on mobile phones, then, is apparently this man's idea of strengthening power. This is an alarming sign of the increasing oppression of women in Chechnya that the international community needs to speak out about immediately, chastising both Kadyrov and the government in Moscow for violent violations of women's rights and dignity.




Heres the original link: http://womensrights...._uncovered_hair




#2 ConradNorCal

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:00 PM

interesting

makes me glad I live stateside

Edited by ConradNorCal, 28 June 2010 - 05:00 PM.



#3 Camo

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:02 PM

:angry: Thats really fucked up.
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#4 Miss_Hell

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:06 PM

And somehow Americans are intolerant <_<

You work that down do chechnian girls!
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#5 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM

read this on the link-

"The belief that women must be covered is an explicit admission that Islam does not equip men with the necessary tools of faith to allow them to resist the temptation posed by women, who look they way they do because Allah created them that way--and should be celebrated as one of His most beautiful creations."

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

People are using their religion as a instrument of oppression. If Islam never existed, these people would be acting the EXACT same way, using some other form of worship or belief to oppress women.

I see violence against women in that article, and a society who's willing to put up with it.

Police or not, someone rolls up and starts shooting my wife or daughters in the face with a paintball gun, would get a hot one right through the chest.

Violence against the defenseless, that's all this is. Absolutely sickening

#6 Awesomeguy512

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 06:56 PM

Ive always thougt that, Mike. Anyone else?

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#7 Plattypus

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 07:03 PM

That's fucking bullshit, I completely agree with Mike.

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#8 ConradNorCal

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 07:49 PM

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.



Their is a lot of confusion amongst Americans when it comes to the Islamic religion. Politicians are always saying that Islam is not a violent religion and that terrorists and followers of Sharia law are bastardizing Islam. This really isn't true, Islam in its earliest beginnings was an incredibly violent and oppressive religion.

The first half of the Q'uran may sound peaceful enough, but the second half shows another goal of Islam. Spread Islam to engulf the globe. Those who do not convert are either killed or "tolerated". Islamic toleration consisted of anything from higher taxes, career retardation, sectioned off ghettoes, boy tribute to man the Janissaries (bad ass assassins), to raiding parties for women, and to outright enslavement. Mohammed himself conquered nearly the whole of the Arabian peninsula at sword point around 662.

Sharia translates to "way" or "path".....All Muslims believe Sharia is God's law, but they have differences between themselves as to exactly what it entails. Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of Sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries and cultures have varying interpretations of Sharia, as well. Although there are many different interpretations of Sharia, and differing perspectives on each interpretation, there is consensus among Muslims that Sharia is a reflection of God's will for humankind. Sharia must therefore be, in its purest sense, perfect and unchanging. The evolution or refinement of Sharia is an effort to more perfectly reflect God's will. Unfortunately, Sharia law has drastically changed throughout the last 1400 years or so likely do to confusion between differentiating between Sharia law and common law.

However, Sharia law and violence are very much a part of Islam. I'm not picking on Islam, I have lots of friends who frequently attend Mosque and we love to debate this subject in the car or through AIM. ;)

It should also be noted the really all religions have violent histories (Christian crusades, Jewish Diaspora,etc)

I guess I'm just sick of hearing politicians (not saying you are Mike) try and get the Muslim vote and appear to be "PC" to the public by falsifying core principles of the Islamic religion and renouncing violence as a non-Islamic trait, when in reality violence is a human trait and cannot simply be applied or not applied to an ethnic group, religion, or country alone.

/end

Edited by ConradNorCal, 28 June 2010 - 11:20 PM.



#9 sticktodrum

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:21 AM

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.


This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.
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#10 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:26 AM

Steven Weinberg said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.


thats definitely sig worthy


#11 FacePainter

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:27 AM

I'd like to make a comment, but I have a view on the contrary to many others about religion, and this isn't a religion thread nor a place to post anything about religion. So I'll hold from posting my views.

#12 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:29 AM

I'd like to make a comment, but I have a view on the contrary to many others about religion, and this isn't a religion thread nor a place to post anything about religion. So I'll hold from posting my views.


I don't think anyone would trip if you said what you wanted.

Edited by ConradNorCal, 29 June 2010 - 12:29 AM.



#13 FacePainter

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:35 AM

Oh, I've seen where threads like this turn out, and yes. People do trip. It's a public forum, there is always someone who takes offense.

#14 Tor

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:38 AM

Who cares? Look at Sticktodrum up there :lol:

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#15 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:39 AM

Oh, I've seen where threads like this turn out, and yes. People do trip. It's a public forum, there is always someone who takes offense.


eh, I get called a troll all the time for posting anti-religious material on the interwebz, I just think, "haterz gonna hate" and proceed to listen to "Move Bitch" by Ludicrous at a stupidly high volume.....


#16 FacePainter

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:41 AM

Hehe, once again, the OP on this thread made no comment towards religion, so I won't either.

#17 sticktodrum

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:53 AM

Hehe, once again, the OP on this thread made no comment towards religion, so I won't either.

Well Mike did, so I corrected his somewhat inaccurate assessment. ;)
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#18 thegreg

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:55 AM

I feel like the article makes enough of a comment on religion. Why restate the obvious? Clearly Chechneya is completely ass-backwards and its unfortunate that this clear abuse of our prefered sport will in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

#19 sticktodrum

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:58 AM

in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

Hrmmm, that's pretty doubtful actually.
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#20 fsugonoles63

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:01 AM


in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

Hrmmm, that's pretty doubtful actually.



So far religion is the only one getting reflected poorly upon Posted Image

#21 Tor

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:02 AM



in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

Hrmmm, that's pretty doubtful actually.

So far religion is the only one getting reflected poorly upon Posted Image


That's the case with alot of situations....

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#22 fsugonoles63

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:08 AM




in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

Hrmmm, that's pretty doubtful actually.

So far religion is the only one getting reflected poorly upon Posted Image


That's the case with alot of situations....


Well, not saying religion is bad or anything but, it causes lots of stupid situations

#23 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:13 AM

Clearly Chechneya is completely ass-backwards


well its easy to say that living in the states and believe me I used to think the exact same thing, but once you actually travel to 3rd world countries (I've been to several) you realize its not the peoples fault per say. Education is usually not offered, or is optional and extremely expensive. They have little contact and or knowledge with the outside world. Their world is all they've ever known.

*Theirs a really great book that deals with this exact issue, can't recall the name, deals with deep space travel and cannibalism, errrr whats it called <_< , If I remember I'll post it*

Even in our globalized world many places still remain isolated and have little to no contact with the outside world. I saw a documentary not long ago that talked about small undiscovered tribes in the Amazon, what you might consider to be commonly known could potentially be unheard of to them.

Edited by ConradNorCal, 29 June 2010 - 01:15 AM.



#24 X Ray

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:16 AM


People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.


This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.


Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.
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#25 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:22 AM



People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.


This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.


Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.


but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.


#26 sticktodrum

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:27 AM

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

Not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that the fact that something is a belief, anything is permissible and possible. It's not about herd mentality, it's about justification. I'm sure that most of the people in that country are decent people, and what they feel they are doing is moral and just. To us, it's not.

People don't understand that morality shifts with time and culture. That is why we see those things are disturbing and disgusting. To them, and others whose customs allow and encourage, they are part of life. It is because of those customs that these inflictions of pain and violence are allowed.

As a species, we have a grand, innate sense of empathy. It comes from our growth as a social species. Like other primates, it's beneficial to have compassion for other members of a group, or our species. That's where our most fundamental recognition that there is a "right" and "wrong" come from. The divine justifications of terrible evils are betrayals to that primitive impulse of empathy.
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#27 Tor

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:31 AM

It's quite simple about what sticktodrum is trying to say.

Its a matter of what they learn growing and how much outside knowledge they accumulate.

Edited by Tor, 29 June 2010 - 01:31 AM.

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#28 X Ray

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:34 AM




People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.


This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.


Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.


but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.


Really? So you think that groups of humans (not individuals) are superior from others because they differ in mental capacities and abilities?
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#29 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:36 AM

It's quite simple about what sticktodrum is trying to say.

Its a matter of what they learn growing and how much outside knowledge they accumulate.


I don't think thats what he's saying at all.....he is saying that empathy (right/wrong) is a basic primate emotion in every human





People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.


This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.


Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.


but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.


Really? So you think that groups of humans (not individuals) are superior from others because they differ in mental capacities and abilities?


not groups, just individuals I also never said superior.....(don't try and make me out to be some jackass neo-Nazi, b/c that was totally not my point).....


#30 sticktodrum

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:43 AM

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Well, unfortunately it's not exactly something that's left up to agreement or disagreement. The jury isn't out on the capacity of the species in terms of physiology or cognizance. You can split hairs with certain people who are obviously of lower capacity (mentally), or are psycho or sociopathic, but those are exceptions, not rules.

Considering our 5+ billion population number stems from an original population of only a few thousand (as our species emerged from/left the Sahara), everyone you see around you is just a different permutation of the potential of that original gene pool. Granted, there is a lot of variation, and some mutation, but essentially we're all the same. Biologically, there is no such thing as race, and superficial variances are mostly due to short-term effects of social group related bolstering of inherited traits. SO yes, for the most part (and that's a really big most), we have the same capacities. Especially, in terms of our ability to formulate a basic sense of empathy and compassion for members of our species. Unfortunately, it's betrayed easily not only by cultural and customary mentalities, but also by conflicting survival instincts that are left over.
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#31 X Ray

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:44 AM


It's quite simple about what sticktodrum is trying to say.

Its a matter of what they learn growing and how much outside knowledge they accumulate.


I don't think thats what he's saying at all.....he is saying that empathy (right/wrong) is a basic primate emotion in every human





People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.


This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.


Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.


but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.


Really? So you think that groups of humans (not individuals) are superior from others because they differ in mental capacities and abilities?


not groups, just individuals I also never said superior.....(don't try and make me out to be some jackass neo-Nazi, b/c that was totally not my point).....


I was not trying anything like that at all, but we are talking about groups of people here. Not idividuals.
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#32 ConradNorCal

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 01:58 AM


but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Well, unfortunately it's not exactly something that's left up to agreement or disagreement. The jury isn't out on the capacity of the species in terms of physiology or cognizance. You can split hairs with certain people who are obviously of lower capacity (mentally), or are psycho or sociopathic, but those are exceptions, not rules.

Considering our 5+ billion population number stems from an original population of only a few thousand (as our species emerged from/left the Sahara), everyone you see around you is just a different permutation of the potential of that original gene pool. Granted, there is a lot of variation, and some mutation, but essentially we're all the same. Biologically, there is no such thing as race, and superficial variances are mostly due to short-term effects of social group related bolstering of inherited traits. SO yes, for the most part (and that's a really big most), we have the same capacities. Especially, in terms of our ability to formulate a basic sense of empathy and compassion for members of our species. Unfortunately, it's betrayed easily not only by cultural and customary mentalities, but also by conflicting survival instincts that are left over.


On a biological sure humans may be nearly the same, but don't you agree that some humans simply strive to "out think" and "out wit" other humans, I consider those with high levels of desire to know the most to be "smarter" than other humans. I think everyone has met those type of people who have an insatiable hunger to learn. I sure have, and I consider them to be smarter/ more advanced than myself and the general population. I think of them as the beginnings of the next evolutionary step in man.

Edited by ConradNorCal, 29 June 2010 - 01:59 AM.



#33 X Ray

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 02:03 AM

As a species, we have a grand, innate sense of empathy. It comes from our growth as a social species. Like other primates, it's beneficial to have compassion for other members of a group, or our species. That's where our most fundamental recognition that there is a "right" and "wrong" come from. The divine justifications of terrible evils are betrayals to that primitive impulse of empathy.


Ok stick I can see you are very smart, I like that, but this is my point exactly. Yes religion can overrule our fundamental sense of empathy, but again I say empathy is there for a reason, for the benefit of the species.

However you are also right on your other points. And there are no easy answers. At least none that I can come up with.

Edited by X Ray, 29 June 2010 - 02:06 AM.

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#34 sticktodrum

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 10:43 AM

On a biological sure humans may be nearly the same, but don't you agree that some humans simply strive to "out think" and "out wit" other humans, I consider those with high levels of desire to know the most to be "smarter" than other humans. I think everyone has met those type of people who have an insatiable hunger to learn. I sure have, and I consider them to be smarter/ more advanced than myself and the general population. I think of them as the beginnings of the next evolutionary step in man.

It's another innate quality, wonder and curiosity. However just like everything else, it's betrayed by more conflicting impulses for survival. In a social atmosphere where variation is wide, and threats are minimal, individuals have more ability to explore without normal consequence. There are indeed people who are smarter, want to be smarter, have the desire to learn more, etc., and each situation has it's own set of causes. Intelligence, wittiness, etc. are all multi-factorial things, and it's too complex to point to one cause or influence. Social structure is just as much an influence on any one's ability as predisposition.

As far as evolutionary steps, there are a few seeming steps that pop up every now and then. However a lot of variation that could perhaps develop towards "evolutionary" developments are usually remixed and suppressed into the gene pool due to reproductive selection. There was a good example of some test done on people who had processing sections of the brain overlapping in function, allowing them to pair figures and colors as if they were single data points, and allowing odd, complex problem solving. I'd have to look that up again, it was really trippy stuff.

Ok stick I can see you are very smart, I like that, but this is my point exactly. Yes religion can overrule our fundamental sense of empathy, but again I say empathy is there for a reason, for the benefit of the species.

However you are also right on your other points. And there are no easy answers. At least none that I can come up with.

Odd thing about that, since it seems so unintuitive (and it doesn't even really sound like it's different at first listen) is that empathy is only there because it benefited the species. It's not exactly a reason, since the empathetic impulse is a bi-product of survival/adaptation as opposed to having a purpose in and of itself.

My point that I tried to make above is that I really don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say that people will find any other reason to do evil, and they hind behind religion. In some cases, that is indeed true. The psycho or sociopathic are indeed evil, and do evil things; their justifications notwithstanding. However that can't (and doesn't) apply to entire populations of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in parts of the world. It's extremely unlikely that millions of Islamic men would somehow find or have any random justification for violence against women, female circumcision, repression, etc. if their divine allowances were not present. It's much more likely (and in my opinion, true) that their cultural beliefs are precisely the reason why they do such things.
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#35 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:04 PM

all good points, I tend to try to separate what is religion and "accepted customs"

It's almost a chicken and egg argument, but I always try to separate what is a custom, and what is specifically instructed in a religious text

I love Mario's saying about needing religion to make good people do evil things.

I dunno, I'm just sick of acts of violence being downplayed because of "religion" or "custom". This is an attack on innocent people, I just see the addition of religion and customs into this as a way for justification.

People are being attacked, people are being injured, it's wrong, regardless of what the perps are trying to hide it behind

#36 nycpbguy

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:17 PM

It's their belief...America came to be because of religious reason. Remember back then where husbands and wives can't even sleep in the same bed? All due to the Puritans beliefs and customs. I am agnostic as I really hate to argue if there is a God or not but I don't believe that there is a higher power being that told men to treat women with such disrespect and violence. Immanuel Kant said that if there wasn't a God people would actually make up someone that is a higher being of them. With that being said was there a psychopath or a group of psychopaths that started all this shit? Maybe...

#37 Vitamin J

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 12:05 PM

My point that I tried to make above is that I really don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say that people will find any other reason to do evil, and they hind behind religion. In some cases, that is indeed true. The psycho or sociopathic are indeed evil, and do evil things; their justifications notwithstanding. However that can't (and doesn't) apply to entire populations of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in parts of the world. It's extremely unlikely that millions of Islamic men would somehow find or have any random justification for violence against women, female circumcision, repression, etc. if their divine allowances were not present. It's much more likely (and in my opinion, true) that their cultural beliefs are precisely the reason why they do such things.

You are completely correct. What is happening in Chechnya, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc to Muslim women happened long ago in Europe to Christian women. The Bible says that women must be modest and cover their hair. Thankfully the people who founded the United States decided that making laws based on the Bible or any other religious text was wrong, though there are many people who wish to do just that. Next time someone tells you that the United States is a "Christian nation" slap them in the face.

You bring up female circumcision, but seem to glance over the fact that 60% of males in the United States are circumcised. Women didn't get to vote until 1920 and it is still a commonly held belief that "woman's place is in the kitchen." So don't think we are that much different from them, perhaps if that area of the world hadn't been raped and pillaged for their natural resources and their governments weren't corrupted or overthrown to gain an edge in the Cold War, they would have better education systems and less militaristic governments.

Edited by Vitamin J, 30 June 2010 - 12:07 PM.

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#38 The Count

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:18 PM

America came to be because of religious reason.


This is not true. The US came to be because of money, simply. Many of the founding fathers were deists, several were even atheists.


Next time someone tells you that the United States is a "Christian nation" slap them in the face.


Do it a second time for me.


#39 Dirk.Baumann

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 03:35 PM

read this on the link-

"The belief that women must be covered is an explicit admission that Islam does not equip men with the necessary tools of faith to allow them to resist the temptation posed by women, who look they way they do because Allah created them that way--and should be celebrated as one of His most beautiful creations."

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

People are using their religion as a instrument of oppression. If Islam never existed, these people would be acting the EXACT same way, using some other form of worship or belief to oppress women.

I see violence against women in that article, and a society who's willing to put up with it.

Police or not, someone rolls up and starts shooting my wife or daughters in the face with a paintball gun, would get a hot one right through the chest.

Violence against the defenseless, that's all this is. Absolutely sickening


Anger management much? Kidding :rolleyes:

#40 PBSL Carmen

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 12:12 PM

Ultimately these guys are just grownup bullies, and hide behing whatever they can and use it as justification so that they don't seem like a bad guy. Bad guys spawn angry mobs that chase them down and tear them to shreds. Good guys spawn supporters. If you can convince people that you are a good guy, you get to keep being a bully. If you can't, you're SOL. All these guys are saying is "I'm a good guy because XYZ told me so."

It just personally pisses me off that so many people use religion as the XYZ.
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#41 sticktodrum

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 12:31 PM

You bring up female circumcision, but seem to glance over the fact that 60% of males in the United States are circumcised. Women didn't get to vote until 1920 and it is still a commonly held belief that "woman's place is in the kitchen." So don't think we are that much different from them, perhaps if that area of the world hadn't been raped and pillaged for their natural resources and their governments weren't corrupted or overthrown to gain an edge in the Cold War, they would have better education systems and less militaristic governments.

Female circumcision isn't what you seem to think it is. It's the practice of cutting off the girl/woman's clitoris in order to reduce their sexual pleasure so that they won't cheat on their husbands. That's what it is. Male circumcision is the removal of the foreskin, which has no bearing whatsoever on the sexual aspect of the male (not physiologically, at least). So, there's a distinction. Now that you know it, I think your opinion might change a bit. Genital mutilation of that magnitude is ridiculous, and still goes on. Male circumcision has been in some cases shown to be beneficial to one's health, but it certainly isn't done in an act of mutilation and control.

Moreover, women's voting is not at all similar or analogous to the treatment of women that is justified by the enforcement of much of Islamic scripture. The culture is rooted in the physical oppression and abuse of women. Women's suffrage may have been political oppression, but American women weren't being publicly stoned, beaten, or having their genitals cut up. Please don't try to make it sound that "we" (Western civilization) is at all comparable to those disgusting practices.

Ultimately these guys are just grownup bullies, and hide behing whatever they can and use it as justification so that they don't seem like a bad guy. Bad guys spawn angry mobs that chase them down and tear them to shreds. Good guys spawn supporters. If you can convince people that you are a good guy, you get to keep being a bully. If you can't, you're SOL. All these guys are saying is "I'm a good guy because XYZ told me so."

It just personally pisses me off that so many people use religion as the XYZ.

I feel the need to restate what I said above. Some of them might be truly evil. That doesn't account for the millions of "bullies" that do these types of behaviors, as I really don't think it's likely that generations of billions of people do these things because they're all just bullies. The religious and cultural justifications are themselves the cause for most of the atrocities. It's not an excuse, or a mask to hide behind. In these cases, it is indeed the cause.

Edited by sticktodrum, 01 July 2010 - 12:32 PM.

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#42 PBSL Carmen

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:19 AM


Ultimately these guys are just grownup bullies, and hide behing whatever they can and use it as justification so that they don't seem like a bad guy. Bad guys spawn angry mobs that chase them down and tear them to shreds. Good guys spawn supporters. If you can convince people that you are a good guy, you get to keep being a bully. If you can't, you're SOL. All these guys are saying is "I'm a good guy because XYZ told me so."

It just personally pisses me off that so many people use religion as the XYZ.

I feel the need to restate what I said above. Some of them might be truly evil. That doesn't account for the millions of "bullies" that do these types of behaviors, as I really don't think it's likely that generations of billions of people do these things because they're all just bullies. The religious and cultural justifications are themselves the cause for most of the atrocities. It's not an excuse, or a mask to hide behind. In these cases, it is indeed the cause.


I'm not sure if we are saying the same thing or totally different things.
There are many times where I would like to, say, punch someone in the face, but I don't because it is assault. If something in the situation says it is ok though, like it is in self-defense or a cop told me to go ahead and kick the crap out of whoever I felt deserved it, I would go ahead and punch them in the face. Because of the XYZ in the situation, I overlook the typical cultural, social, and ethical norms in order to do what I want. From that, it could be said that the XYZ was causing my actions, but I don't agree with it as a blanket statement. Religion did not make me punch anyone in the face, but only removed the standard obstacles. I already wanted to do it. If I didn't want to do it, I wouldn't do it. Nobody's going to hold a gun to my head because I "didn't follow the ways" of their deity and commit acts of violence.

Edited by PBSL Carmen, 02 July 2010 - 08:24 AM.

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#43 sticktodrum

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:54 AM

^You're stumbling onto a largest part of the cause issue right there. I know what you're saying, and it's generally the next logical step.

You have your social/ethical/cultural/moral "norms", and those change with time. For the most part. What seems to be constant is a very basic sense of morality and empathy, as it was one of the prominent survival impulses of the social species that we are. So, that's that.

Moving on, the issue/obstacle of "assault" is actually the non-desire for punishment. You don't want to be arrested and sent to jail, or fined, or whatever, so you don't commit a crime. That's usually most people's alleged excuse for not killing/hurting someone (although I'm quite sure most of the time it's just hot air). Similarly from the other direction, most people do things because they might be rewarded.

Obviously, where this is going, is that there are a lot of people who believe that they are punished or rewarded after death. When your belief is strong enough, and it is indeed real to you, that is the logic that you follow. If you believe that treatment of a certain people is what your god wants you to do, then you do it. Otherwise, you'll be punished. If you do something righteous in the eyes of your god, you'll be eternally rewarded. These principles are as real as the potential jail sentence that faces your or I should we break the law.

Moreover, it's not uncommon for people to randomly commit acts of good because they feel it is morally just, "right", or what they think will make someone happy or help a cause. This is just what the same violence can stem from. Murder, suicide bombing, abuse, are all things that are usually done because in the person's mind, it was a good idea.

Would you let your daughter's genitals be mutilated? Would most people? Probably not. It happens anyway. Violence against women happens anyway. These things happen anyway, by million and millions of people. Again, it is very unlikely that all of them, generation after generation, all just "wanted to". That's nonsense, and you'd have to have more faith than I do to believe that.
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#44 PBSL Carmen

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:30 AM

Very true.

I tend to see human nature as a conflict between the desire to make things better for yourself by sacrificing others and the desire to make things better for others by sacrificing yourself. It is very difficult to find this balance on a personal level, and even more difficult to have a group of people find it. I see religion as a method of getting people to look for their own balance and standardize it somewhat. If everyone had the same "balance point" we would understand each other's actions and avoid many of the problems that stem from misunderstanding.

Where I think many religions go arwy is when they set different levels for different groups of people. It opens the door for violence because "they must stay in their place and we must stay in ours"! That kind of inequality does not promote understanding, and I think that religion is often misconstrued as a reason for inequality. The deity I believe in doesn't give a shit about male, female, white, black, readhead, brunette, doctor, trucker, etc. All that matters is that you made a positive impact in someone's life somewhere.

Unfortunately, these Chechen police are either bullies or they think that they are making a positive impact through their actions. Any truly spiritual minister or spiritual guide would tell them otherwise. It seems that the politicians and the public may not want that, though. They may be afrid of any changes to the current way of life because they don't know what will come next, and history has shown that religion is often great for opposing change.
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#45 sticktodrum

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 10:09 AM

Well that's something else entirely. I won't bother getting into the areas of someone knowing the "mind" of their spiritual entity. As I've learned from talking with spiritual people, there are as many gods and versions of gods are there are people. Each person believes in a god of their very own, and I don't think it's a very wise thing to see that any one's "god" is any more just or fair than anyone else's.
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#46 Vitamin J

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 10:32 AM

Female circumcision isn't what you seem to think it is. It's the practice of cutting off the girl/woman's clitoris in order to reduce their sexual pleasure so that they won't cheat on their husbands. That's what it is. Male circumcision is the removal of the foreskin, which has no bearing whatsoever on the sexual aspect of the male (not physiologically, at least). So, there's a distinction. Now that you know it, I think your opinion might change a bit. Genital mutilation of that magnitude is ridiculous, and still goes on. Male circumcision has been in some cases shown to be beneficial to one's health, but it certainly isn't done in an act of mutilation and control.

Well we can disagree then. 1 in 10,000 male who are circumcised suffer from erectile disfunction. There is no medical reason, only religious or "cultural" reasons. It removes thousands of nerve endings and originally was practiced to reduce male pleasure during intercorse "so men could be more faithful to their wives." Female circumcision can be similar to the male practice, or it can be unimaginably brutal depending on what country/region/religion/etc

Moreover, women's voting is not at all similar or analogous to the treatment of women that is justified by the enforcement of much of Islamic scripture. The culture is rooted in the physical oppression and abuse of women. Women's suffrage may have been political oppression, but American women weren't being publicly stoned, beaten, or having their genitals cut up. Please don't try to make it sound that "we" (Western civilization) is at all comparable to those disgusting practices.


You're right, they were just burned at the stake in America. Europe in the Dark Ages was very similar to modern day Sharia Law. Like I said the Bible is extremely similar to the Koran and says that women must dress modestly and cover their hair, among other things.

We have come a long way, and our society is unmeasurably better now than even 60 years ago, but maybe you remember something called "Rule of Thumb" saying that husbands can beat their wives and children as long as they use a stick not wider than their thumb.


My point is that we're all humans and everyone on Earth is capable of doing these things so we need to not "otherize" them or remove their humanity when we talk about other cultures.

Edited by Vitamin J, 02 July 2010 - 10:38 AM.

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#47 sticktodrum

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 10:40 AM

Well we can disagree then. 1 in 10,000 male who are circumcised suffer from erectile disfunction. There is no medical reason, only religious or "cultural" reasons. Female circumcision can be similar to the male practice, or it can be unimaginably brutal depending on what country/region/religion/etc

First, 1 in 10,000 is statistically irrelevant. Not to mention, it doesn't mean a causal relationship. At all. From all of the Urologists I've spoken to prior to my own circumcision (which happened in September last year), it doesn't, and CAN NOT cause any dysfunction sexually. The foreskin isn't attached or intertwined with those workings. Moreover, it cannot be similar, as the clitoral removal is physiologically equivalent to removal of most or all of the penis itself. You're dancing around a subject of which I doubt your knowledge.

Male circumcision has though, been found to be beneficial. There are organizations in Africa, currently offering some of the population circumcision surgery, as it greatly reduces the risk of contracting HIV through intercourse.

Edited by sticktodrum, 02 July 2010 - 10:41 AM.

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#48 Vitamin J

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:56 AM

Like I said, we disagree. I think it is a barbaric and useless procedure. Though if its something you want to do, then do it I guess. I am glad it was you making the decision and not your parents, I believe child circumcision is child abuse.

Also I would say your urologist has monetary investment in making you believe it is harmless.

http://www.huffingto...e_b_249728.html

This year, 1.2 million male babies in the United States will have between 35 and 50% of healthy, functioning penile skin -- containing over 20,000 nerve endings and the five most sensitive areas of the penis -- removed in a procedure that all of the major medical associations in the world, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society, have deemed medically unnecessary.

...

Having started among ancient Egyptians and ancient Semitic peoples as a religious sacrificial ritual, the practice didn't take hold in Western societies until the late 1800s, when Western society was mired in masturbation-related hysteria.

...

We also know that the human papilloma virus (HPV), which also causes genital warts, is the most important risk factor for cancer of the penis -- and genital warts are more easily contracted by circumcised men. Moreover, penile cancer is much less prevalent in countries like Denmark, where circumcision is uncommon, compared to the United States, where between 50-60% of males are circumcised.

...

A recent study looking at sensitivity of the penis in the circumcised and uncircumcised male found that the five most sensitive areas on the penis are removed at circumcision, and that the keratinized glans on the circumcised penis is less sensitive than the foreskin-protected, mucosa-lined glans on the uncircumcised penis. The skin removed from the penis at circumcision makes up close to 50% of the total penile skin, amounting to 15 square inches in an adult.Even the mildest form of female circumcision is illegal, and very rightly termed female genital mutilation. Male circumcision on the other hand, is demonstrably more severe than some of the milder forms of FGM, but still performed widely. It is still covered by many insurance providers, and Medicaid in most states, despite being completely unnecessary.


Sorry, its not harmless.

So the males in the study that underwent circumcision were not only told to abstain from sex for a significant time period after the operation -- reducing their exposure time by six weeks compared to the uncircumcised (control) group -- but told to use condoms, taught how to use them, and educated about their benefits. During this six week period, the men in the uncircumcised group did not have the same restrictions.


Sorry, it doesn't prevent HIV.

You know what does though? Condoms, something the Catholic Church spends millions of dollars to keep out of Africa, while promoting abstinence and circumcision.

Please click the link as all those claims are sourced.

Edited by Vitamin J, 02 July 2010 - 12:00 PM.

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#49 sticktodrum

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 05:31 PM

Wow...I had no idea exactly what kind of person I was having a discussion with. Now, it's extremely clear. Anyone that cites the anti-science rag The Huffington Post and claims a doctor to have monetary investments in things usually falls into a mindset that is anything but scientific.

The quotes you've posted up there, are just bad science. The first bit is largely untrue, and the label of "medically unnecessary" is not equivalent to "medically detrimental" and does not cut out medically beneficial. Considering the growth of the foreskin is NOT predictable at that age, there isn't much telling of the developmental health of it in infants.

In many, many cases, male circumcision is necessary. It was in my case, and I've personally spoken with several other people where in their surgery was necessary.

The Huffington Post (and the stories they publish) are often, widely, and openly laughed at and criticized by the scientific and skeptical community. Using them for health and science information is just about as useful as getting your medical advice from Oprah's guests. They promote anti-vaccination and new-age garbage. Not to mention the usual round of conspiracy theorist nonsense.

Just to whet your palette:

http://skepchick.org...huffington+post

http://skepticblog.o...esultsperpage=5

http://www.theness.c...huffington post

I didn't bother posting a link from QuackWatch. It was too much to sort through even with a search.

Anyway, on the subject of HIV prevention, you'll read that it is biologically plausible, as well as scientifically sound. Here are some actual sources with merit:

http://www.scientifi...e-hiv-infection

http://www.cdc.gov/h...ircumcision.htm

Moreover, what the Pop preaches is nonsense, and I do not agree with the "Church" viewpoint on anything health related. We are apparently of one mind on that front. I do not, however, appreciate of subscribe to bad science, and ridiculous notions of financial gain in accepted, proven procedures of medical necessity in modern medical science. That doesn't help anyone.

The choice of circumcision should be left up to the individual. I also agree with that. However the act of removing the clitoris (which is what female circumcision is) is many orders of magnitude worse than disposing of essentially useless skin from the male. Female circumcision is a cultural inclination with a specific purpose, and it's disingenuous to imply or assert that they are analogous. They simply aren't from an anatomical standpoint. If you dismiss that, you dismiss the known scientific base of that anatomy.

Anyway, I can see where this is going, so I'm personally done. The science speaks for itself, and is confirmed over and over in real world practice. Ethical and moral standpoints are up for debate, but I've said my peace on those.
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#50 Mantown Mayor

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 05:48 PM

What Mike said.

If that happened around here, you'd receive a caliber a lot more serious than .68.

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